Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance) moved

the second reading of Bill No. 308, to amend the Loan Companies Act.

Mr. Green:

How will the money be obtained that is required to carry out the operations under this bill? Will it come from the estimates submitted by the Department of Trade and Commerce, or from those of the Department of National Defence?

Mr. Howe:

Since the inception of civilian buying the practice has been that the requisition is accompanied by a certificate of encumbrance on the estimates of the armed services. In other words, we get a requisition to procure a certain supply, and at the same time we get a certificate of encumbrance

Defence Supplies

from the- Department of National Defence making the cost of that supply a charge on the defense estimates.

Mr. Green:

Then the amounts would appear in the estimates for the present fiscal year under the Department of National Defence?

Mr. Howe:

That is right.

Mr. Green:

Certain power is also taken in connection with the construction of ships for other departments. How would that money be provided?

Mr. Howe:

It is provided in exactly the same way; that is, any requisition on the Minister of Trade and Commerce for the procurement of any supply has to be accompanied by a certificate of encumbrance charged on the estimates of the department making the requisition. The funds of the Canadian Commercial Corporation are used in connection with transactions where payment is made on delivery-that is, transactions on behalf of foreign governments, or for stockpiling purposes.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

I wonder if the minister would now be good enough to answer the question I have asked previously. Would he give us an illustration of a case where he could not carry out the requirements of the defence department with the ordinary powers he now has, and in which these new powers are needed? I have been asking for that, but I have never got it.

Mr. Howe:

If there were any new powers under this legislation I could give the explanation, but no power is contained in this bill that the Minister of Trade and Commerce or his predecessor the minister of munitions and supply has not had since 1939.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

I do not think the minister should go on singing that old song. We understand each other, I think. I understand what the minister means when he says he is not getting new powers, but in point of fact the powers contained in the munitions and supply act have been hardly availed of at all in these last years, as the minister in effect has admitted. I am now asking what there is the minister cannot do without the powers under the munitions and supply act, which would make this new legislation necessary. In other words, why can he not go into the market in the ordinary course of business and with the ordinary powers with which he is clothed? Why are these new powers necessary? I hope the minister will give me an answer and not fall back on that old hair-splitting device he has used. He is much too big for that.

The Deputy Chairman:

Order. Could we not discuss the powers of the minister under section 3?

No.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

Well, I do not know that I care very much whether the discussion is on section 1 or on section 3, but I thought section 1 was the place to ask general questions, and I have already asked this question once or twice. I am sure the minister would just as soon answer it under section 1, and he would be just as unwilling to answer it under section 3 as he is now.