Mr. W. F. Carroll (Inverness-Richmond):

Mr. Speaker, I have only a few words to say on this resolution, which reads:

That, in the opinion of this house, the government should take into consideration means of expanding and equalizing educational opportunity across Canada, by the granting of financial assistance to the various provinces for that purpose.

It will be seen that the object of the resolution is to equalize educational opportunity in this country of ours. I think that the people of this country who want to send their children to school have an equal opportunity in, every province of Canada. As far as I recollect, the mover of the resolution has been the only one who has made a specific recommendation, and I quote from page 461 of Hansard of February 19, 1951:

I would say that the two greatest needs are money for the payment of teachers, and money for the erection of buildings for educational purposes.

The hon member kept clear of assistance to universities and his reason was that that question is under advisement and consideration at the present time by a commission of this country. So far as those two objectives are concerned, I should like to point out that stone walls do not a prison make nor iron bars a cage. No more do magnificent buildings in the shape of school structures or a great array of teachers provide the things that make for equality of educational opportunity in this country.

I want to give credit to our province and its present government for having given first place to education. I believe the mover of the resolution made some mention of the salaries being paid in Nova Scotia. Well, I think the teachers in my province, according to their qualifications, their experience and their grades, are more or less on an equality with the civil servants in Canada, certainly with those in Nova Scotia. Since the provincial pension fund was put on a better footing the province has been contributing $300,000 for that purpose. So, while I believe the teachers of Nova Scotia are not getting sufficient, like the civil servants in Ottawa, conditions have improved.

As to the equalization of opportunity, a great deal has been done in that connection also, particularly in the industrial areas where the unions have had something to do with it. Years ago I lived in industrial centres in my province where the fathers and mothers of families did not have incomes sufficient to enable them to send their children to school. They were not able to clothe or feed them properly. Many years ago I had occasion to look into the situation in two industrial towns in the eastern part of Nova Scotia, and the children were not going to school for the

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reasons I have mentioned. I cannot give to the unions all the credit for the improvement, but they did help bring about conditions under which people have been at least able to provide their children with sufficient food and clothing so they may go to school; and of course our industries co-operated with the unions toward that end. The same conditions existed in our fishing ports in the dark days; the people did not have sufficient income to send their children to school regularly. That was why, years ago, the children of Nova Scotia did not have an equal opportunity.

I am very proud of the educational system of my province. This evening I was glad to hear the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) make reference to Carleton college, that fine institution which has been developed in Ottawa. I would point out to the house that the first president of that college was born, bred and educated in Nova Scotia. He contributed a great deal toward raising the necessary funds to organize that institution. The present president of Carleton college is also a Nova Scotian and, better still, from Cape Breton. These men were not subsidized in getting their education. They received no bonuses from the local government or the dominion government. It took them a long time to get through their university courses, but they were the better men for it. .

I have a fairly close association with three of Nova Scotia's universities. For some years I was a governor of Dalhousie university, the principal university in my province, where the professions are taught. It has the greatest law school in Canada; I cannot say much about the medical school, because I do not know enough about it. I am also a governor of St. Francis Xavier university, which has been doing wonderful work in Nova Scotia. They were not satisfied to just sit back and take in the young men and women who could afford to attend that college. They instituted a system of adult education, under which they sent field men throughout the province, as well as into New Brunswick, giving instruction to the people. They brought in older men who in their earlier days did not have much education; they gave them a course in adult education, and sent them throughout the province; and that work is still going on. I am also on the senate of St. Mary's university, which is doing good work in the city of Halifax. All these universities, of course, are financially embarrassed; they are all looking for money. For the reasons given by the hon. member who introduced this resolution, however, I am not saying anything about assistance to those three universities. We also have Ste. Anne's university down at Church

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Point, which is doing marvellous work and which over the years has turned out some of the most brilliant men we have produced in Nova Scotia.

I am not saying these things to praise Nova Scotia, but because I have always been proud of the educational facilities there. I have had a good deal of experience in these matters, and I do not think there was ever a man or woman in that province who set out to get a higher education, in the professions or otherwise, who was unable to accomplish that purpose. They have gone out and earned money for themselves. I can take my own case. I was a long time getting through law school. I was thirty years of age before I graduated from Dalhousie university. I did not have any money. In my undergraduate days I did manual labour for three years in order to help myself through. Speaking of school teachers, I was one; a very poor one, I am told. I taught school for two years, and I would be ashamed to tell this house what my salary was. Nevertheless I made enough to take another year at law school, and was able to dress fairly well in addition. When I got through university I had a bachelor of arts degree and went to teach school. I had every grade from 1 to 11. I taught them Latin and French. I stayed with them after school hours. I had a first class licence. My B.A. did not amount to anything in those days; and as a matter of fact, as far as practicability is concerned, it does not amount to much today. I was paid $150 by the section and $120 by the province for my first class licence. That was my salary, $270, and I did such a good job that they offered me an increase of $25 the next year. I wanted to go to law school, and I figured out that I would probably succeed in getting through my law course when I was about thirty-eight years old. I was twenty-two at the time.

So, Mr. Speaker, in every province of this country there is opportunity for higher education if the young people want to grasp it, if they have the courage and perseverance and the will to get along in the world. As I said, I never saw a man in Nova Scotia who wanted to become a lawyer, a doctor, a clergyman or anything else, who did not succeed whether or not he had money.

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):

A lot of them are trying to be doctors now, but they cannot get into Dalhousie medical school.

Mr. Carroll:

What is your question, sir?

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):

I was saying that many people are trying to get into the medical school at Dalhousie who cannot get into it.

Mr. Carroll:

That is not the fault of the young man who is trying to get in.

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):

Oh, no.

Mr. Carroll:

I know something about that. After the war preference was given to the veterans, and I think properly so. If we want to do something to give ecual opportunity for education across this coun.ry we have to start at the bottom, as the minister told us. I had it in my notes before he started his speech, but the greatest impetus that was ever given to education in my own province was the family allowance. This enabled the mothers and fathers across the country to give a fair amount of clothing and proper nutrition to their children so that the children could go to school. The immensity of this family allowance is something that is perhaps not well understood. I shall tell you my idea of the reason for inaugurating family allowance. John Jones and I work in an industry. We get the same pay. I have one child and Jones has five or six. With my one child I am just able to get along in some sort of decency. How is my friend going to get along who has four or five children? I think that is the philosophy behind these family allowances.

Another thing that has done a great deal for the province of Nova Scotia in the matter of education-I can only speak about my own province-is the government's action with regard to health. Throughout the years hundreds of children across this country have been unable to go to school because of bad eyes, bad tonsils or bad throats. This government-I am not saying "this government" because it happens to adhere to the same political principles I have, because any government would have done the same thing -has contributed to health matters throughout this country. Not only that, but four or five years ago some of the universities in the maritimes started a course for social workers. This government came to the assistance of that program. How does a social worker fit into the educational program? A social worker goes around under the aegis of the province of Nova Scotia, assisted by money from this government, not for the purpose of detecting crime, not for the purpose of ascertaining whether or not the woman of the house is looking after the little money she gets from the family allowance, but to investigate the health and economic conditions under which that family is living. These workers report to headquarters, with the result that the health of these people is improved. In addition to that, there are nurses going throughout the province. Now, all these things give the people a greater opportunity of securing an education.

So far as I am concerned, I would be glad to see this government give all the money

it could possibly give to the various provinces for the purpose of assisting education. It would not be very much out of my pocket, one way or the other. This resolution was on the order paper last year, and has been on the order paper for some time. I received no message from the authorities in the province of Nova Scotia requesting me to support this resolution. I do not know if many members in this house have received encouragement from their provincial governments to give it their support. Perhaps some have. There was a good reason for that, and I think the reason was explained by the minister. I believe that before any assistance could be given to the provinces, especially along the smaller scale I am talking about, there has to be an agreement between the provinces and the dominion government. Other matters have been worked out that way in the past, and I see no good reason for adopting a different course today. Unless there was such an agreement, no results could be achieved.

At the moment I am not taking the constitutional question into account. I know nothing about constitutional law because I did not study it very much. A knowledge of constitutional law is not of much assistance to a man in a country practice. The less he knows about it, the better practice he will get. I am not putting that forward as a bar at all, but there are ways and means of entering into an agreement with the provinces from which there will be no aftermath of disagreement. Good results can be achieved if the provinces co-operate with the dominion. So far as helping out the universities is concerned, all I am going to say is that I think it is in good hands at the moment if I am correctly informed. So far as the province of Nova Scotia is concerned, the universities are doing splendid work and they are all in need of substantial financial assistance.

There were other things that this government, and other governments, have done concerning health matters in the various provinces which have enabled the children to go to school. There have been things done by this government and other governments in the way of family allowances. In the province of Nova Scotia we have a widows' allowance, which is something apart from this government altogether. All these are the best things that could have been done by this and other governments to equalize the opportunity for education in this country..I really did not intend, Mr. Speaker, to take up so much time tonight. I thought in justice to my own province that I should say something to indicate that, after all, we are not in the wilderness down there. I want to say that

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there is no province in the whole country that has sent abroad to the various provinces of Canada, and the border states, as great a number of well educated professional men, that is, proportionate to population, as the province of Nova Scotia.

Mr. Speaker, I am not going to take up very much time tonight. It was not my intention to speak on this resolution, but I received several telegrams from various associations in my province stating that they would like to have someone speak for the province of Prince Edward Island. I believe in that old saying that silence is golden, but I also believe that it pays a politician to keep talking.

First of all, Mr. Speaker, I should like to congratulate the sponsor of this resolution. He has endeared himself to the teachers of my province more than any other man. I might say that if he were running on the Conservative ticket in an election down there, he would secure the vote of every schoolteacher in the district. I am sure also that he is receiving the highest congratulations possible from many of the teachers in my own constituency. One remarkable thing in connection with this discussion is the number of men who have spoken here and who still hold to the profession of public schoolteacher. Many of those who have spoken have had years of experience in teaching. Two of those who spoke, the hon. member for Peel (Mr. Graydon) and the hon. member for Spadina (Mr. Croll), said they had a particular reason for speaking on this resolution in that they had married schoolteachers. That was a good reason. I went a step further and married one of my pupils; and over the years I found out what an excellent schoolteacher I was. I therefore think I have a right to say something tonight with reference to this subject. As I said, however, I shall be brief.

Our province has nothing to boast about with regard to the salaries paid to public schoolteachers. In fact, I have heard it stated by various speakers that the schoolteachers of our province are paid the lowest rate of salary that is paid in any province in Canada. I regret this situation, but it is owing to the fact that our province, financially, is not in a position to pay that extra amount that our teachers should be getting.

The hon. member for Inverness-Richmond (Mr. Carroll) told about the conditions when he entered the teaching profession. I might say that some twenty, thirty, forty or fifty years ago, or thereabouts, when I took on this noble work, I had the wonderful salary of $225 paid by our provincial government. However, I continued in the work for a couple of years and then retired from it,

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having reached the maximum for rural schoolteachers, which was $650. That, however, was before the dawn of this century. Things have now changed. Our teachers are of course now getting a higher salary; but it is not commensurate with the work they are performing. I was pleased to hear the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew) today speak about schoolteachers and their work. He placed them next to the clergymen of our country. He said that, next to clergymen, they were doing the greatest work for civilization that was being done by any class of people.

I want to say this with regard to our teachers. While they are not as highly paid as are teachers in other provinces, there is not an institution of any standing from the Atlantic to the Pacific in which you will not find Prince Edward Island schoolteachers teaching and spreading the knowledge they possess among the pupils under them. The same statement holds true to a lesser extent with regard to the United States. Five of the largest institutions of learning in the United States up to a few years ago were headed by Prince Edward Island teachers. To you, Mr. Speaker, and to this house I say that if we were able to pay a sufficiently high salary to keep those high-class teachers in our own province, our educational system would be still better.

I do not want to say anything about the schools and their curricula, because the province can take care of the buildings and the curricula. Our great problem is with regard to the payment of teachers, so that people can go into teaching and make a life profession of it.

I am not going to take up the time of the house further except to say this. I want heartily to support this motion, as I am sure all will who consider it in the light in which it should be considered, namely that the teachers today, especially in some of the provinces, are not receiving a living allowance. I think we should all vote for the resolution and see what the government can do to further the interests of education on an even basis throughout Canada.

Mr. R. R. Knight (Saskatoon):

Mr. Speaker-

Mr. Speaker:

If the hon. member speaks now he will close the debate.

Mr. Knight:

I had to take the responsibility for starting this debate and I thought I might say a few words in bringing it to an end.' I am now assured that there will be a vote taken on this matter. That is a matter of delight to me after the attempts that I have made in this house in previous sessions to bring about just such a consummation.

I should like to say a word or two about one or two of the speeches that have been made here today. The principal speech offered on behalf of the government by the Minister of National Health and Welfare (Mr. Martin) was, in my opinion, adequately answered by the leader of the opposition (Mr. Drew). I shall leave that one alone.

I should like to say that I enjoyed the autobiography of the hon. member for Inver-ness-Richmond (Mr. Carroll). I congratulate him upon having reached his high eminence from what he described as a humble start. There are many people in this country, though, of his age, who have not, may I say, reached that particular scale of eminence. The hon. gentleman came out with the flat statement that there was equality of opportunity in the matter of education for the children in this country. While I have learnt from experience that it is not safe to speak anything derogatory of any part of the maritime provinces without being publicly rebuked for it, I want to assure him before I say anything that what I have now to say has no such intention. I am interested of course in the maritime provinces as I am interested in my own province; but as to the actual equality of opportunity in the province of Nova Scotia I am sorry that I shall have to quote my own speech. At the moment I have no better authority because I have sat pretty conscientiously at my desk here all day today. Quoting from my own speech of

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October 19, 1949, at page 932 of Hansard, I find this statement:

In 1943 the average salary of city teachers in Canada was $1,784, while that of rural teachers was $852.

The house will excuse me, of course, for this rather spotty quotation. I am just jumping from place to place in my speech to quote the parts that I think are germane to the question. I continue:

Dr. Argue's report shows that while one province was spending $31 per child for educational purposes, another was spending $83.

Skipping again a little bit:

Let me prove that statement by pointing out that in 1945 there were 4,550 people teaching-and I do not call them teachers, because they did not hold teaching qualifications.

My hon. friend says that there is equality of opportunity in education all across Canada. These were people who were teaching not on a certificate, but on what they called a permit. Another quotation from the same speech further down:

One learns from the census that 668.000 people in Canada over five years of age are totally illiterate.

I presume that is the last decennial census.

I should like the hon. gentleman to notice this. I continue:

In 1941, the last year for which I have the figures, only 85,000 living citizens in Canada had university degrees, while at the other end of the scale there were 360,000 between the ages of six and sixteen who were not at school at all.

I take it that is what the hon. gentleman calls equality of opportunity in the matter of education.

As to the province of Nova Scotia, I should like to endorse what he said. Some of the greatest students and some of the greatest scholars have come out of the province of Nova Scotia. Will you note, sir, the words "come out of". They have scattered across this country, and they have made a tremendous contribution to the education of this country, but I submit that has nothing to do with the argument we are engaged in tonight.

May I say, too, that the Nova Scotia teachers are fine people. I met a lot of them. I spoke to a thousand or so of them last fall at various places, but I find this in the statistics of the dominion bureau of statistics. Of the teachers engaged in teaching in rural schools in the year 1948 in the province of Nova Scotia, from which my hon. friend comes, and a constituency of which he represents, 47 per cent were substandard. Forty-seven per cent of all the rural schools had teachers who were substandard, in that they had not any proper teacher's certificate at all but were teaching on some temporary basis. At

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this moment while I speak, unless my figures are wrong, one-eighth of all the teachers of Nova Scotia are teaching on permit. So much for Nova Scotia. I think I have made it perfectly plain that I have nothing against either the fine people, the fine scholars or the fine members of parliament who come from that province. When my hon. friend says there is equality of educational opportunity across this country I beg to differ with him and I think I have proved my case generally in regard to Canada, and in particular in regard to Nova Scotia.

One other point and I shall leave this matter. This is a rather significant one. The member just referred to says that there is now equality of opportunity. Statistics show almost a hundred per cent of the children of the professional classes attending high schools. At the other end of the scale, of the children of those doing unskilled labour only fifteen per cent attend high school. Clothes, books, the need for earning money, for transportation to or board at school, all enter into the picture; and my hon. friend says that there is equality of opportunity.

I should like to pay a tribute to one who made a speech which moved me rather deeply, although it was very short. I refer to the hon. member for Greenwood (Mr. Macdonnell). He brought this debate up to a very high level and kept it on a high plane, but the speaker who came after him, the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Byrne), "what a fall was there, my countrymen", got down to a rather low level. I shall come back to him.

The hon. member for Greenwood mentioned three points with which I was particularly sympathetic. The first was when he spoke about Queen's university. I happen to be a graduate of that college. The second was when he spoke of the need of the humanities, and the danger that we will get away from the humanities by force of the stress of war or emergency and will be persuaded that education and vocational training are the same thing. He spoke afterwards in favour of a liberal education. He could not talk too long or too much in that particular regard to suit me.

I also noticed his reference to Buchan. Perhaps like myself he is a lover of anything that Tweedsmuir ever wrote. 1 was thinking of a line or two from Buchan which perhaps is not too applicable to education, not as applicable to education as it is to the hereditary greatness of which Buchan was speaking when he said: "The spark once transmitted may smoulder for generations under ashes, but the appointed time will come and it will

flare up to warm the world". So much for the hon. member for Greenwood. I should like to develop his argument somewhat along the same lines. This matter we are now discussing is largely a matter of money, a matter of finance and how that finance will be raised, how it will be applied constitutionally to the thing to which we want it applied.

A great many people are confused about the purposes and aims of education. People put their money into a business and expect to receive dividends in cash; but they are impatient if an investment of cash brings them merely a dividend of the mind and spirit. No money spent on education is to my mind ever wasted.

Now, sir, I could go on to speak about the speech of the hon. member for Kootenay East which, in my opinion, was one of the worst speeches I have ever heard in the house. It was excelled only by one that the hon. member made in my hearing before. I think I shall merely leave it alone. He credited me with two observations of my seatmate-that is forgivable. However, he failed to understand, and he misinterpreted to the house completely, the closing paragraph of the speech I made in opening this debate. He sneered at what he called the irresponsible provinces in Canada, and he sneered at those who introduced and spoke in favour of the resolution in that, as he said, they were doing it for ulterior motives in order to make their salaries better or their living conditions better. If that is not a slander on the teaching profession of this country, then I do not know what it is.

So that there may be no doubt as to my opinion in the matter, I shall leave on record, in the last speech of the evening on this particular subject, one or two further ideas which I did not develop in my opening remarks. Apart from their own convictions, members of the house must have become conscious of the rising tide of popular support for the intent of this resolution. The hon. member for Inverness-Richmond (Mr. Carroll) said he had not received any such report from his home constituents. If he will come up to my office he will see a pile a foot thick consisting of telegrams and letters from organizations and teachers in Nova Scotia.

Mr. Carroll:

I rise on a question of privilege. I did not say that I did not have any correspondence with any educational parties in Nova Scotia. I did say I had not received anything from the provincial government regarding this matter.

Mr. Knight:

While I am prepared to accept the hon. member's explanation I would say that we in the House of Commons do not represent provincial authorities. We represent

the people of Canada in the constituencies of Canada. However, in so far as I misinterpreted what the hon. member said, I apologize to him for it.

Let me lay down now in regard to the whole subject two or three main points. First, federal aid herein referred to implies in no way any interference with either the administration or curriculum of education in the provinces, or any other matter in regard to education which comes entirely within provincial jurisdiction.

Second, since the burden of education has become so heavy upon certain provinces and municipalities, and taxation upon real estate for purposes of education has about reached its limit, has indeed become well-nigh unbearable, therefore the dominion government is the only organization with sufficient means to come to their relief.

Third, in view of the inequalities which exist as between province and province, and as between town and country, and because there is a distinct difference in the efficiency of education in urban and rural schools, the sole purpose of this resolution so far as I am concerned is to bring about in the affairs of education in this country an opportunity for education for all the children of the country, and that it should be more nearly equalized, without any consideration of the place of residence of the children, the country of their origin, or the economic status of their parents.

There is one more speech about which I should like to say a word or two-and I approach it more in sorrow than in anger. I refer to the speech of my hon. friend, the popular member for Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot), who did little credit to his undoubted ability. He is so kind to us; he is so courteous to us; he is so polite to us that we find it difficult even to disagree with his opinion. But the hon. member himself I am sure would be the last to say that we should refrain from criticizing his opinion or disagreeing with him for any such reason.

I would say that his opinions with regard to education, as I see them, are the opinions of a feudal baron, perhaps in England, or a seigneur of France in the 17th or 18th centuries-certainly in some period prior to 1789. There can be no doubt about that. As I interpret his ideas, rightly or wrongly, they are long out of date. He conjures up a pretty and pastoral scene, the little child receiving its instructions at its mother's knee, in the shadow of the village church.

Those of us in favour of the resolution believe, of course, in instruction by the mother. We believe of course that a child should be grounded in the faith of his father. But that is not enough. The potential mothers

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of the nation must have some education which they can hand on; education is no longer a matter of folklore.

My hon. friend has told us that science may destroy us. I agree with him. Science may destroy us-nay, will destroy us-if we do not join to it a sense of moral values; and education should help the process of building values. I believe education will help promote that mutual understanding that works for peace in the international sphere, and in the domestic field that national unity of which the hon. member for Portneuf (Mr. Gauthier) spoke so eloquently on Monday last. I had set aside a quotation from his speech, with the intention of reading it, but at the moment I have mislaid the copy of Hansard in which it appears.

I cannot agree with the hon. member for Temiscouata in his misquotation, or his partial quotation, "ignorance is bliss". That, of course, is not the quotation. He has said that ignorance is bliss. No doubt the cow is a happy and contented animal; but neither my hon. friend nor I, I think, would be prepared to change places with her.

As to his assertion that a soldier needs no more education than enough to teach him to handle a gun-I cannot agree with that either. My hon. friend seems to think that education is something for the privileges. I believe it should be the common right of all. For the hon. member for Temiscouata, whose superior education is so evident in his speeches, education seems to be one thing; but for the common man or, as he said, for the poilu, it is something else. I use that word because it is the one used by my hon. friend. In his opinion that is quite something else.

Indeed he goes so far as to declare that lots of people would be happier if they could not read or write at all. They would then, he says, have time to do some thinking. I suggest that some knowledge is necessary on which thought may be based, or around which it may revolve.

There is perhaps some confusion in my hon. friend's, mind as to the purposes of education. To me education and vocational training-and I wish for a moment to follow the line taken by my hon. friend from Greenwood-are two separate things. No doubt education will assist a man in getting a job, or after he has attained to a position, but that is not its ultimate purpose. If my son is to be a soldier-he was one temporarily- then I want him to be an educated soldier. If he is to be a farmer, then I want him to be an educated farmer. If his occupation is to be one of those classed as humble, I want him nevertheless to be an educated man. In

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fact the more humble and less interesting his occupation is, the greater need there is for him to possess an education. If he wishes to live a full and happy life, education can assist him to live it more abundantly. Because a little girl is a dressmaker, should she be denied an appreciation of poetry or of that language which is universal to all races, namely, music? Because a boy is to be a farmer, is that any reason why French or English literature should be a closed book or the arts should have no interest?

I shall say no more. I am thankful that there is no need to convince the majority of members of this house of the benefits of education. There is a greater need to convince them that the federal aid for it which I visualize is for the benefit, not only of our sons and daughters, but of the whole nation.

Mr. Ross (Souris):

I was paired with the right hon. member for Melville (Mr. Gardiner). Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.

Mr. Cardiff:

I was paired with a member on the government side. Had I voted I would have voted for the motion.

Mr. McCubbin:

I was paired with the hon. member for Middlesex East (Mr. White). Had I voted I would have voted against the motion.