Hon. Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works):

Mr. Speaker, by leave of the house I move:

That the report of the civil service commission recommending changes in the compensation of the staff of the House of Commons, tabled today, be concurred in.

Mr. Fulton:

Have you a summary of the effect of the motion?

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

Some months ago increases were granted to all civil servants on a scale that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) announced in the house. The same scale was applied to the staff of the House of Commons, but cannot be paid to them without the concurrence of the house because they come under our jurisdiction.

Mr. Casselman:

Does that apply to all members of the staff of the House of Commons, or only to certain chosen members?

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

I am relying upon

the report of the civil service commission. I do not know whether they would make any discrimination as between members of the staff.

Mr. Casselman:

Then you cannot answer

the question; is that it?

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

I can always answer,

but I do not know whether I can satisfy the hon. gentleman.

Mr. Speaker:

Probably the house would

like to know that a number of employees of the house are not under the civil service commission. I think that may be the point of the question raised by the hon. member for Grenville-Dundas (Mr. Casselman). The temporary and sessional employees who are

not under the commission are not covered by the report which has been tabled, but according to the practice these employees are receiving comparable increases under another schedule the Clerk has drawn up, which it is not necessary to present to the house.

Mr. Knowles:

May we take it, then, that between these two schedules all the employees of the House of Commons are covered?

Mr. Speaker:

I think I am safe in saying

that is correct. I do not say the increase is exactly the same, but I believe I am right in saying that all employees are covered by those two reports, according to the statement made by the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent).

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

By leave of the house I move:

That the report of the civil service commission recommending changes in the compensation of the staff of the library of parliament, laid on the table of this house today, be referred to the joint committee on the library of parliament.

Hon. Brooke Claxton (Minister of National Defence):

Mr. Speaker, hon. members will

recall that, in the statement I made on February 5, I said that the government had offered to the North Atlantic treaty organization to train additional aircrew. The number proposed was 1,100 per annum, which would bring the total to be trained for NATO and the United Kingdom something over 1,300 per annum.

We have now received the recommendation of the standing group that all the places available in respect of this additional number up to December 31 of this year should be allocated to the United Kingdom. After that the allocation will be reconsidered.

At present our plans provide for a build-up to an annual output of aircrew of over 3,000. That represents an increase of six times the figure for 1950 and fifteen times the figure for the previous year.

This will be accompanied by a fivefold increase in groundcrew training facilities.

Administrative establishments will also be increased though not to the same extent.

This will require the reopening of a number of airfields. During the war we had a total of 56 airfields used for training either under the British commonwealth air training plan or other plans.

Air Training Plan

We already have air training schools and operational stations or other units in operation or under construction at Goose Bay, and, to a very limited extent, Torbay in Newfoundland; at Summerside in Prince Edward Island; at Dartmouth and Greenwood in Nova Scotia; at Moncton, to a limited extent, and Chatham in New Brunswick; at Bagotville, St. Hubert, St. Johns and Dorval in Quebec; at Rockcliffe, Uplands, Arnprior, Trenton, Downsview, North Bay, Centralia, Clinton and Aylmer in Ontario; at Winnipeg, Gimli and Rivers in Manitoba; at Edmonton, Calgary and Suffield in Alberta; and at Patricia Bay, again to a limited extent, and Vancouver in British Columbia. There are, of course, other headquarters and depots in addition.

Experience during the second world war, when Canada trained 131,000 aircrew, showed that the best places for flying training was in the prairie provinces. Located in these provinces are a number of flying fields with runways, hangars and buildings in a relatively good state of repair, enabling re-establishment to be done as speedily and economically as possible.

Accordingly, all the new flying schools will be located in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Also, to facilitate maintenance and administration and to take advantage of more suitable weather, basic flying training schools will be grouped in the western part of this area, while advanced flying schools will be grouped in the eastern part of this area.

The new schools to be re-established are flying training schools at Claresholm and Penhold in Alberta and Moose Jaw in Saskatchewan. Advanced flying training schools are to be at Saskatoon in Saskatchewan and Portage la Prairie in Manitoba, with a gunnery school at Macdonald. The flying training school at Gimli will later be converted to an advanced training school. A large air navigation school will be established at Winnipeg in addition to the present school at Summer-side, P.E.I.

Of the existing establishments, Aylmer, Camp Borden and Clinton in Ontario will concentrate on trades training. Selection and manning will be carried on at St. Johns, Quebec, where there will be a very large establishment.

With hardly an exception, all the other establishments will be increased in accordance with the expansion of the program. Abbotsford will be used this summer for training some of the auxiliary squadrons, others going to other schools. In all probability Abbotsford will later be used as an operational station.

Air Training Plan

In this connection I should like to say that a large number of representations have been received from members of parliament, mayors, boards of trade and other representatives of most of the localities mentioned and many others. They have all offered the closest possible co-operation and reception to the R.C.A.F., with which they had such excellent relations during the war. That co-operative spirit is very greatly appreciated.

The places chosen have been selected having sole regard to two factors: first, suitability for the purpose intended; second, the condition of the existing facilities so as to provide for the most economic and speedy rehabilitation.

The facilities of all the stations will be used to the fullest extent possible. For example, by improved training methods we expect to have pupil populations of 300 at the flying training schools, as compared with 240 during the second world war. The limiting factor at each school will be the number of hours of flying that physically can be fitted in, having regard to the weather and capacity of the airfield.

To operate the plan will require a large number of additional aircraft for training. My colleague, the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Howe), announced in the house on March 5 that we would be manufacturing Harvards of the most modern type, as well as engines. In addition to meeting our own requirements, we expect to make a number of these aircraft for sale to the United States. In the meantime, our own needs can be met out of our own stocks, supplemented, if necessary, by aircraft borrowed from the United States, to be replaced out of our own production later.

We shall also be acquiring from the United States some two-seater jet training aircraft to be used until our own production enables us to meet all our own needs for this type of aircraft.

The record made during the second world war in the British commonwealth air training plan has shown that Canada is particularly qualified to make this important contribution to our collective security.

Mr. George A. Drew (Leader of ihe Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, since the Minister of National Defence (Mr. Claxton) has very properly availed himself of the privilege which is accorded by unanimous consent to make a statement of this kind, I think it is proper that I should refer to the subject which he has mentioned.

It will be recalled that on earlier occasions I have urged that time should be set aside for a debate in an orderly way on the subject

'Mr. Claxton.]

of national defence. There can be no more important subject for this house to consider at a known time, and in a way which will make it possible for views to be clearly expressed on all sides of the house, than that of national defence.

What has now been placed before the house by way of information as to the general plans for training pilots and aircrew indicates the increasing importance of this subject. It is important not to overlook the fact that every night, and in fact at times during the day, the Department of National Defence is making an appeal in which the words are used, "The need is urgent; the time is now." Mr. Speaker, with this greatly expanded program announced by the minister, I urge that the Prime Minister indicate that there will be a settled date for a debate on national defence immediately or shortly after this house resumes following the Easter recess.

Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):

I believe it will be very easy to arrange that under the existing standing orders of the house. The general estimates have now been tabled, and I shall be glad immediately after the Easter recess to discuss with my hon friend and with the leaders of the other groups the selection of a day to call the estimates of the Department of National Defence, and to arrange as to what time should be devoted to that subject before passing anything else.

Mr. Dechene:

Mr. Speaker, in view of the announcement made by the Minister of National Defence may I be allowed to direct a question to him? Some time ago a rumour was circulated in Edmonton, pursuant to an announcement made in the legislature of Alberta by a local member, concerning the establishment of an air training school near a place called Lac la Biche in the constituency of Athabaska. Is there any truth in that report?

Mr. Claxton:

Consideration has been given to that, and discussions are now under way with the government of Alberta as to whether the very large area that would be necessary might be made available by the province.