Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):

In view of the applause which

greeted the announcement made by the Minister of Finance that he would bring down his budget tonight at eight o'clock, I trust I shall have unanimous consent of the house when I move:

That standing order 15 in relation to the consideration of private and public bills on Tuesdays be suspended for the sitting of Tuesday. April 10, 1951, so that the order for the house to resolve itself into committee of ways and means (budget) may be proceeded with at eight o'clock p.m.

Hon. Milton F. Gregg (Minister of Labour):

Mr. Speaker, on Friday last the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough) asked me a question, which is reported at page 1670 of Hansard, as to the organizing activities reputedly being carried on by the international union of mine, mill and smelter workers at Yellowknife and Port Radium in the Northwest Territories.

The union in question is known as the Yellowknife district miners union, local No. 802, of the international union of mine, mill and smelter workers, an organization which has carried on as an independent international union since its expulsion by both the Canadian Congress of Labour and the Congress of Industrial Organizations in the United States.

There have been contractual relations for some time between this union and the two principal mining companies in the Yellowknife area. One of these companies is Giant Yellowknife Gold Mines Limited, the management of which recently renewed its agreement with the union for the period from April 1, 1951, to March 31, 1952, through the process of direct negotiations. The other is the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company of Canada, which has contractual relations with the union covering employees at its "Con" and "Rycon" properties, expiring in June, 1951.

Smaller mining operations are carried out in the Yellowknife area by Negus Mines Limited and Discovery Yellowknife Gold Mines Limited. These companies do not have collective agreements with any trade union, and the Department of Labour has no information as to any union organizing activities being carried on at their properties.

At Port Radium, much farther north, the only employer is the crown company, Eldorado Mining and Refining (1944) Limited, which carried out uranium mining and concentrating operations at La Bine bay on the east shore of Great Bear lake. In 1946 an attempt to organize the employees of this company was made, and an application for certification as bargaining agents was filed with the national war labour board by officers of the so-called Eldorado section of the Yellowknife district miners union, local No. 802. After conducting a vote, the board rejected the application for the reason that it was not supported by a majority of the employees affected. The Department of Labour has received no information that would indicate that there has been any union organizing activity at Port Radium since 1946, and there is no collective agreement with any trade union covering employees of the company's operations in the Northwest Territories.

Railways and Shipping-Committee

Collective bargaining does take place, however, in connection with the refinery operations of Eldorado Mining and Refining (1944) Limited at Port Hope, Ontario. There the production employees are covered by a collective agreement between the crown company and the chemicals division of the United Mine Workers of America.

Mr. W. G. Weir (Poriage-Neepawa) moved:

That the name of Mr. Harkness be substituted for that of Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood) on the standing committee on public accounts.

Hon. Lionel Chevrier (Minister of Transport) moved:

That a sessional committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government be appointed to consider the accounts and estimates and bills relating thereto of the Canadian National Railways, the Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, and Trans-Canada Air Lines, saving always the powers of the committee of supply in relation to the voting of public moneys; and that the said committee be empowered to send for persons, papers, and records and to report from time to time, and that notwithstanding standing order 65, in relation to the limitation of the number of members, the said committee consist of Messrs: Benidickson, Bourget, Carter, Cavers, Clark, Foil-well, Fraser, Fulton, George, Gillis, Gosselin, Hatfield, Healy, Helme, James, Knight, Macdonald (Edmonton East), Macdonnell (Greenwood), McCulloch, McLure, Mott, Mutch, Picard, Pouliot, Thomas.

He said: Mr. Speaker, this is the usual motion to appoint the committee on railways and shipping to which are assigned for consideration and study the annual reports of Canadian National Railways, Canadian National (West Indies) Steamships, the Canadian National securities trust, the auditor's report, and the annual report of Trans-Canada Air Lines, together with certain of the estimates of the committee of supply which are withdrawn from the house and referred to the committee on railways and shipping for consideration.

Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, before the motion

carries, there are a few words that I should like to say. I heartily support the motion to set up the committee once again. Indeed it is rather an institution, and is almost a standing committee of the house by now. I should like to urge, however, that the committee in its study of the affairs of the

Canadian National Railways this year give particular consideration to the position of pensioners of that railway, and indeed the position of employees of the railway who hope that some day they may enjoy the pension benefits they deserve.

My remarks will be brief; indeed, most of [DOT]what I might wish to adduce by way of evidence can be found in Hansard of March 12 of this year at pages 1129, 1130 and 1131. On those three pages will be found quite a number of questions which I had placed on the order paper concerning Canadian National pension matters, together with the answers given by the Department of Transport.

I shall not take time to give all the minute details contained in those answers, but I should like to point out that there are 3,256 retired employees of the Canadian National Railways whose pension is only $25 per month. In addition, there is a small group of twenty-four pensioners whose pension was earned under a prior plan, and is an amount less than $25 per month. If one takes the answers to the various sets of questions contained on these three pages and does a little arithmetic, one will discover that there are 7,269 pensioners of the Canadian National Railways whose pensions amount to less than $40 per month. I will not give the results of the rest of the arithmetic I might have presented on the basis of the answers to these questions. I submit, however, that the time has come for an overhaul of the set-up of Canadian National pensions. That applies with respect to those now on pension; for, as with many others on fixed incomes, their position has become a very difficult one. It applies likewise to those still employed and contributing to various pension plans.

I know what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Abbott) says when we plead the cause of such people, the cause of superannuated civil servants and others, but I notice that in Votes and Proceedings for yesterday, the 9th of April, there is notice of a motion to adjust the pension position of a certain other group of employees of the federal government- namely, that of judges-and of judges' widows. No doubt the increased cost of living will be presented as a factor in that situation. If that is the case with respect to one group it is the case with respect to all groups. I plead in particular, because of the motion now before us, the case of pensioners and prospective pensioners of Canadian National Railways. It is not often that 1 quote the Canadian Pacific Railway Company as a good example, but I must point out that although it is a very small adjustment that the Canadian Pacific has made, that private company has recently made certain changes in its pension plan which

have the effect of boosting by stages the amounts of pension that retired employees of that railway may enjoy.

The Canadian Pacific Railway Company has also made provision for a supplement- it is a very small one-of $5 per month which it awards to pensioners whose pensions are in the lower brackets, until such time as they reach an age entitling them to receive the old age pension. My compliment to the Canadian Pacific Railway Company is not unlimited, because, as I have already indicated, I do not feel that it has gone nearly as far as it might have, but at least it has recognized the fact that modern conditions call for improvement in the pension plans affecting its employees. I submit that this applies also to the employees of the Canadian National Railways. I have argued from time to time, and it is still my view, that what we need in this country is a set-up similar to that in the United1 States. I have in mind the railroad retirement act in that country. I will not take time to give all the details, because I have done that on previous occasions, and have indicated the many ways in which that federal legislation in the United States provides much better pension arrangements than those accorded to railway employees in Canada. I still hope the day will come when our railway employees will have the benefits of a pension plan of that kind.

In the meantime-and I say that advisedly because we know how long it takes governments to move in these matters-it is grossly unfair that pensioners of the Canadian National Railways, numbering 3,256, should be drawing only the basic pension of $25 a month; and it is manifestly unfair that there should be 7,269 former employees drawing pensions of less than $40 per month. My questions put the bracket at $39.99, so that is the number of pensioners drawing less than $40.

I submit that in the light of present-day conditions; in the light of the fact that this is our own government-owned railway and that government institutions should be model employers and should be leading the way, the time has come when this whole situation should be overhauled, and there should be an immediate improvement in the pensions paid those already retired, particularly those in the lower brackets. There should be a change in the whole plan in order to improve the position of those who in future will become pensioners of the Canadian National Railways. I strongly urge that this committee go into this matter this session, and I would hope the result might be a report to the house that something should be done without delay.

Railways and Shipping-Committee

Mr. J. G. Diefenbaker (Lake Centre):

I

want to add just a word to what the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles) has said. On several occasions in previous years I brought up this matter with a view to removing the evident injustice that is being done so many of these former employees who receive only $25 a month. I suggest to the minister, as I have done on previous occasions, that the regulations under which this fund is administered contain many anomalies and injustices. I think of employees who, having worked on the railway for fifteen, eighteen or twenty years, are unable to carry on because of illness, and are denied any pensions. I think of the recent example of a man in Saskatchewan who after twenty-five years of service as a sectionman had to retire because of illness. He has nothing to show for those twenty-five years.

The pension regulations should be substantially changed and brought up to date. As I remember it, the basic pension of $25 a month came into effect some twenty-two years ago. At that time $25 had a far greater purchasing power than it has today. It was inadequate then; it is more than inadequate now. If I were a member of this committee I would endeavour to have this matter considered, with a view to doing something on behalf of these public employees. After all, the employees of the Canadian National Railways, a government enterprise, should be shown the consideration that is expected from private enterprise; and certainly $25 a month cannot be justified by any stretch of the imagination. When it is realized that more than three thousand employees are in that category it is hard to understand the attitude of those in authority in failing to revamp the act and the regulations in order to do justice in many cases where today injustice is being done.

I am not going into the matter at length today; I have done so on previous occasions. I have also dealt with the United States retirement act. I realize there would be difficulties in applying that act to Canada, but there can be no justification for the continuance of this system of pensions for men who give thirty and forty years to the public service, men in the lower income brackets, sectionmen, porters and so on, whose salaries do not permit them to make provision for their later years. With salaries of $150 and $175 a month it is impossible for these people to provide their own pensions. They give of the best years of their lives; and, even having regard to the economy we all wish to practise at this time, I am sure there could be no criticism if the injustices now being done these men were corrected.

1776 HOUSE OF

Railways and Shipping-Committee

Mr. Graydon:

May I ask the minister

whether it is his intention to bring before the committee this session the question of the debt structure of the national railways?

Mr. Chevrier:

Mr. Speaker-