Mr. Claxion:

No, not at all.

Mr. Fulton:

How many assistant deputies

and how many associate deputies are there?

Mr. Claxion:

I just gave that information. Do I have to give it again? We have a deputy minister, and two associate deputy ministers, and one assistant deputy minister. The organization of the department is completely on a tri-service basis. All of the services are performed at that level by civilians for each of the three services. We consider it desirable that the unification should extend in that way.

I should like to have one more word with reference to the public accounts. There they have an alphabetical list of employees. What I have been asked for tonight is a list related to something in a future year which does not correspond either to the alphabet or to functions as indicated in the estimates. I would be glad as we come to each item of the estimates to give as full information as is available.

Mr. Drew:

That is exactly what we are

asking. We are asking for full information respecting the category of each of these employees, and of the amounts paid, except in such cases as they are being paid at ordinary wages; and in that case we would have them bulked as they are done ordinarily. That is what we are asking.

Mr. Wright:

It seems to me that in preparing the estimates to present to the Minister of Finance the minister's department must have had certain numbers of people in view, whom they were going to employ in different capacities. All we are asking is to have some of these figures which the minister must have presented to the Department of Finance.

Mr. Claxton:

May I recall that I have already given those figures in relation to the item under discussion. I gave the amount of $3,489,842. I have described the number of employees, and their association with the department. It totals 1,270 employees. I have already given that.

Mr. Wright:

But the minister has not broken it down in various classifications, namely those who are stenographers or inspectors, or whatever classification they may have had. He must have had that information when he presented his estimates to

Supply-National Defence the Department of Finance. All we want is the number in the different classifications, and the salaries in those classifications. We are not asking for each individual.

Mr. Claxton:

I see. As I understand it,

you would like to have that information for the 33 people in the minister's office, and their classification?

Mr. Wright:

Yes.

Mr. Claxton:

And the 44 in the deputy minister's office, and their classification?

Mr. Wright:

Yes.

Mr. Claxton:

And the 100 of civilian personnel, with their classification; and the 145 in central registry, with their classification; and the 50 in printing and stationery; the 45 in auidt; the 18 in public relations; the 22 in the judge advocate general's office; the 727 in the inspection service; the 6 in the library; the 80 with the civil defence board co-ordinator. All these make a total of 1,270, and you would like to have their classifications?

Mr. Wright:

Yes, the same classifications as are given in the other departments.

Mr. Claxton:

Well, I would think it would take some time to obtain that. They were given, of course, in building up these estimates.

Mr. Wright:

Yes, they must have been available then.

Mr. Claxton:

Yes; and it would take some time to read it into the record. Of course we are only beginning with this. We will have some 30,000 altogether, including prevailing rate employees, which might represent 40 per cent. Do you want the same thing for the armed forces, too-which would be another 70,000?

Mr. Wright:

Just the civilian employees.

Mr. Claxton:

It would require another book like this one. We had better do it next year, don't you think?

Mr. Harkness:

What the minister has just read out indicates the necessity for information of this sort. Among other things there is a public relations personnel of 18 civilians. It happens that a great deal of public relations work is done by service personnel. I believe there is a lieutenant colonel who is a public relations officer at national defence headquarters, with a man of equivalent rank in the air force and another in the navy. Then at each command headquarters there is a major or captain doing public relations work, along with other ranks. In addition to these public relations officers and other ranks there are 18 civilian personnel engaged in public

relations work. I have been under the impression that public relations work for the department was done by these public relations officers. What do the 18 civilians engaged in public relations work do and what are their salaries?

Mr. Claxton:

The director of public relations has charge of the public relations activities for all three services and the department. Then there is the necessary clerical and stenographic staff in addition to the service personnel. I would think that this is one branch of the department's activities which will be considerably increased in the near future. We find we are understaffed at present.