Mr. Harkness:

What are the names and salaries of the 18 public relations civil servants and their classifications?

Mr. Claxton:

The permanent civil servants are as follows:

F. Carlofsky, clerk grade 4, $2,580.

R. V. Dodds, information officer grade 5, $4,740.

R. C. Donison, typist grade 2B, $2,040.

M. M. Dustan, stenographer grade 2B, $2,040.

V. M. McCaffrey, clerk grade 3, $2,280.

Mr. Harkness:

The director does not appear in that list.

Mr. Claxton:

He is temporary so far.

Mr. Quelch:

I take it that many of the civilians paid under this item will be doing the same work as service personnel who will be working alongside them. I know of a number of cases where the wages paid to a civilian amounted to $10 or $15 a day while the serviceman working alongside receives perhaps $2.40 a day or whatever the rate may be. I realize that the man in the armed service receives many benefits which the civilian would not receive but when the rate of pay is four, five or six times that paid tc the serviceman he seems to have good reason to complain. I think as far as possible we should avoid having that situation develop. If work of a similar character must be done by civilians and service personnel then they should not be working side by side.

Mr. Claxton:

In 1946 the armed services

worked with a committee with the treasury board and the other departments concerned to work out a uniform scale of pay for the three services. At that time an effort was made to have the rates of pay in the navy, army and air force made equivalent to those paid by eight leading industries for similar work. The matter was gone into at great length, assisted by the Department of Labour, the dominion bureau of statistics and the

Department of Finance. At that time uniform rates of pay were fixed which we considered to be the equivalent paid by industry for similar jobs.

It must be remembered that the service personnel receive hospitalization, medical services, pensions, clothing and so on. All those benefits were taken into account. Subsequently there were two increases in rates of pay. The last increase was made as of December 1, 1950, and these were designed to make the increase across the board to all service personnel equivalent to the increase in the cost of living index since 1946.

A check was then made to see how they compared with the rates paid by the same eight leading industries, and they were found to be on the same basis. As far as possible the rates of pay are equivalent. No doubt in certain categories, particularly in jobs in RCEME, where the men would be working on motor vehicles or in the dockyards civilian personnel will be working alongside service personnel. Perhaps because of seniority or trades rating they may be receiving different rates of pay, but as far as possible we avoid that situation.

Mr. Hees:

What is the name and the salary of the temporary director of public relations which the minister mentioned?

Mr. Claxton:

The name is William

Dumsday. He is not a temporary director, he

Business of the House is the director of public relations. His salary is $6,000, but he is still a temporary civil servant. He was a wing commander during the war and did the same kind of work with the air force.

Item stands.

Progress reported.

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):

On Monday we will resume the debate on the motion of the Secretary of State for External Affairs with respect to his estimates. Then we will take up the resolution standing in the name of the Minister of Finance dealing with veterans professional loans. Then the two resolutions standing in the name of the Minister of Veterans Affairs with respect to pensions and certain rights and privileges to be granted to members of the special force. When those have been concluded we might consider the resolutions standing in the name of the Prime Minister with respect to certain matters here in Ottawa. If there is still time we will take up the resolution standing in the name of the Minister of Labour having to do with an amendment to the Government Employees Compensation Act, 1947.