June 7, 1951

LIB

Robert Henry Winters (Minister of Resources and Development)

Liberal

Mr. Winters:

Mr. Chairman, with respect

to the first question about what we can do to induce the provinces to participate under section 35, I think all I can say is substantially what I said before. We have told them collectively and separately that we would be glad to entertain specific proposals from them. Our legislation is clear. I believe it is understood by the provinces. Again, all I can say is that it is there if they wish to use it.

With respect to the second matter, the availability of mortgage money, in a detailed sense that of course is beyond my scope. It is something I would normally expect the Minister of Finance to deal with. The fact of the matter is that at the present moment the availability of materials for housing, and the availability of mortgage money to build houses, are pretty well in balance. The shortage of mortgage money was going to have an adverse effect on housing, in fact the mortgage companies had just about withdrawn from operations. We felt obliged, in the interests of the Canadian public, to take these steps which we think will keep the housing act alive, even though it means a slightly higher interest rate to the borrower.

When I mention the matter of materials, it brings me to the hon. member's third question as to what we are doing about finding materials that might be suitable for

7. 1951 3837

Supply-Resources and Development housing. The Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation has a research section which works very closely with the national research council on matters of materials. They are finding substitutes all the time, and approving them for one purpose or another. They are not a matter of great public knowledge, but the fact is that some progress is being made all the time in the matter of new materials and improved materials for

housing.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the minister's answers. But the minister's answers, all members of the house will agree, amount simply to this. We face complete frustration on each and every one of those three points. There is not anything we can do about removing any one of these three difficulties in our endeavour to provide housing for this nation.

Mr. Chairman, I am prepared to grant that the minister is not to blame for any one of these three problems. But if the members of this house are going to face this thing like grown people, with realism, they have got to do something to help the minister. This is especially true of the members of the Liberal party. If they are going to discharge their responsibility to this nation, they have to do something about it.

Obviously, the facilities are at their disposal if they choose to use them. With respect to materials, the minister said we are conducting research and are making some progress here and there. My question is, why are we not getting the houses? I am sure the member for Spadina was not extreme when he pointed out we are not getting nearly enough houses. But what are we going to do about it? I believe that the discussion we have had this afternoon and tonight has indicated that just about one-third-I would not be surprised if we could say more than that, just about one-half-of the people in Canada simply cannot afford the housing which is being offered under the housing act. Look how serious that is. That means virtually all the people who really need houses cannot get them. Are we not going to do anything about this matter?

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

Talk about it.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

That is right, the Liberals are.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

You have been repeating the same thing for the last half hour.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

That is just about what the minister has been doing. He certainly has been repeating frustration.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

You have not spoken about debt-free money yet.

Supply-Resources and Development

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

That is right, and speaking of debt-free money in the presence of some members reminds me of one of the passages in the scripture, "cast not your pearls ..." I ask the Minister of Public Works to get up and tell us what to do about it. It is all very well for him-

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

You never sit down long enough for me to make a statement.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

I have been sitting down. I have not spoken today until now. I have listened nearly all afternoon. At a time when people are simply groaning under the burden of inadequate housing in this country, here we are going to finish this discussion once more apparently with nothing done. That is all there is to it. The interest rate is raised, and the government's aggregate assistance to the people who would build has been cut down.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
LIB

Jean Lesage (Parliamentary Assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. Lesage:

Write to your friends in the government of Alberta to do their share, and everything will be all right.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

The government of Alberta can show the whole Dominion of Canada a mighty fine record-

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
LIB

Jean Lesage (Parliamentary Assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. Lesage:

They are not coming under section 35.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

If the hon. member wants to have a discussion on the matter of Alberta I shall give him the opportunity and make him look like two cents. This sort of silly, flippant, idiotic remark about the government of Alberta is just an example of general Liberal irresponsibility. It is irresponsible to make a general statement like that. It is made so the press will pick it up and make it look as if something was said. After all, the something that was said demonstrated that there was "nobody home" in the head of the speaker.

Now, Mr. Chairman, there is one more thing and that is this-I am not repeating nearly as much as the Minister of Public Works would have it appear. The ordinary individual who wants to build himself a home-a modest little home, one that he can afford-today has no facilities whereby he can do so. Throughout this country there are great numbers of people who build their own homes just as men used to build their own sod shacks and their own log houses. They would build their own homes and they would learn how to do the building readily if they could only get a loan and get the material with which to build the homes. To tell us in Canada that materials of the kind are not available is to be absolutely unrealistic; and every member of this committee knows that right well. There

certainly are in this country materials which can be used for building; and the people, generally speaking, would use those materials and build the houses, if they could get the money with which to buy the materials. But we will not let them have the money because we say we have got to get it all from the mortgage companies and that we cannot lend it to them except under certain circumstances. We therefore have to go on facing complete frustration.

I do not propose to say any more about this matter just at the present time, Mr. Chairman. If the people throughout the country could realize and know how many times during the last hour and a half we have had from the Liberals all over the place calls of "carried, carried", and could realize how completely that indicates the utter indisposition on the part of those members to find a solution for the problem, I do not know what they would do. I suppose they would go and. elect a Liberal government right away again, because they would not have any alternative.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
?

Some hon. Members:

Hear, hear.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

They would have no

alternative-I suppose I shall be out of order-because the Conservative party which faces them has exactly the same policy as the Liberals have, and the same ideas. There is not the slightest difference in the world.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
PC

Douglas Scott Harkness

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Harkness:

Say not so.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

One does not have to say it. We are listening to it all the time. To say that there is no alternative as far as the Conservatives are concerned is quite obvious, and does not need to be said.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Order.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink
SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

All right, Mr. Chairman.

I just wish to make this point. If people could realize how fcompletely irresponsible the great, big, overwhelming Liberal party is in this house with respect to this matter of building houses, they would be astounded.

Topic:   INDIAN ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION
Sub-subtopic:   CONCURRENCE IN SENATE AMENDMENTS
Permalink

June 7, 1951