June 15, 1951

?

Some hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

Agar Rodney Adamson

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Adamson:

-but if I were interested in running a shipping line, I would damn well know what business my ships were in.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

Order.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

Agar Rodney Adamson

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Adamson:

If I were running a shipping business, I would know what cargoes my ships were carrying; and if I were responsible for looking after the granting of indemnities to ships, I would know what was happening.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

John Sylvester Aloysius Sinnott

Liberal

Mr. Sinnoil:

It will be a long time before you are running one.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

Joseph-Alfred Dion (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Liberal

The Chairman:

Order.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

Agar Rodney Adamson

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Adamson:

It is a strange thing, Mr. Chairman, but the Greeks had a word for people who made baa-baa noises in the back row. They called them barbarians. We merely call them heathen Chinese.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

Having been the first member to introduce the storms of the south China seas to the calm waters of this committee, Mr. Chairman, I should like to add a few words before you rise and report progress.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works; Leader of the Government in the House of Commons; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

Or carry the item.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

When the committee reassembled after the break for the luncheon hour, the Secretary of State for External Affairs referred to the fact that he had lost

his usual composure just before the committee rose for lunch. During that brief period in which he was speaking before lunch he suggested that I should feel sorry for the statements I had made. He suggested that I would rue the day. He did not use those words, but in his remarks he most definitely used a tone which was almost threatening, when he said that I should be sorry for the statements which I had made.

I now want to examine the statements which I made-and I was quoting from this letter-just in order to show how far the statements which were made by the general secretary of the navigating and engineer officers guild have been borne out and supported in this discussion. The first point which was brought out in the letter was that vessels of the Ming Sung Industrial Company were trading between Hong Kong, Macao and Canton. Evidence has been produced by ministers here today to show that that statement is correct. The next one was that Canton is a port under the direct control of a government with which the government of the Dominion of Canada has no political relations. I think that statement can be accepted. It has certainly not been denied here today. The third point was: What were these vessels carrying? On the one hand the secretary of the guild reports that eyewitnesses have stated that the daily cargoes included essential war materials. On the other hand we have had produced here today by the Minister of Trade and Commerce a letter from a branch of the company concerned which states that it is not carrying essential war materials out of Hong Kong.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

John Horace Dickey

Liberal

Mr. Dickey:

Would the hon. member permit a question?

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

No, I have not much tjme and I would like to finish what I have to say first. Then you may ask your question.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

John Horace Dickey

Liberal

Mr. Dickey:

I thought the hon. member might like to state where the eyewitnesses were located.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

It has been shown that these vessels leaving Hong Kong can go to Macao and then on to Canton. I would like to call attention to the fact that, because of its strategic importance and because of its reputation as a port, although it is not a port of China proper, Macao has been named by the Minister of Trade and Commerce as one of those points to which strategic war materials may not be sent.

So there is at least the -possibility that, having cleared from the Hong Kong government, these ships -could go and pick up essential war materials from Macao for

Supply-External Affairs delivery elsewhere. Because quite obviously it is an entree port into communist China.

The next point was that these vessels are trading under a Canadian flag. This was substantiated here this afternoon time after time.

The fifth is that they are officered and manned by Chinese, and that one has a Russian captain. There is no question about their being officered and manned by Chinese. There has been doubt, in fact it has been emphatically denied, that there is a Russian ca-ptain. Well, it is quite possible that such a mistake could have been made, because it is pretty hard to distinguish between some Russians and Chinese. We must remember that the Mongolian is a Russian, and a Mongolian looks very much like a Chinaman, to those who are not familiar with those people.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

John Horace Dickey

Liberal

Mr. Dickey:

Pretty weak!

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

George Randolph Pearkes

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Pearkes:

Then the next point was that the Ming Sung Company trades in China under the flag of the people's republic of China. There has been evidence today to show that at least two vessels which were taken-if "taken" is the right word-which were operating up the Yangtze, which were built in Canada, and which were included in these original seven or nine vessels which were sold, are still operating on the Yangtze under the flag of the people's republic of China. I do not think that has been denied.

The next point is that the regulations have been evaded. Perhaps "evaded" is not quite the right word, because they were granted exemption from adhering to the Canadian regulations. The average person in Hong Kong would not know that the exemption had been granted. It is quite a reasonable assumption to make that the regulations were being evaded.

There is no question about the concern which such organizations as the merchant navy officers organization, and others, have felt about this matter. So, thus far, I see no cause for great concern on my part. I am not repentant for having brought this matter before the House of Commons. I believe it was my duty to bring it to the attention of hon. members, because it is a serious matter. Because, while there may be some slight inaccuracies, as perhaps have come out

and not yet proved-I still feel that this discussion has brought before the people of Canada a very critical, dangerous, unsatisfactory and, to use the word used last night by the Minister of Trade and Commerce, unhappy situation.

I repeat the request I made earlier in the discussion, that something be done to stop

4198 HOUSE OF

Supply-External Affairs the possibility of this trade going on with Canadian ships in enemy territory. I cannot help accusing the government of being somewhat slack in this matter. They knew that these Canadian ships trading under the Canadian flag were operating in those waters since last summer. They also knew that the Chinese troops started fighting in North Korea last November; and it seems to me rather extraordinary that, so far as we can find out from the discussion today, until a week ago no attempt has been made to try to correct this situation.

I think I have dealt with those points. I do want to stress once again that the ships are operating for this Ming Sung Company- a large company which, as has been admitted today, has ramifications and branches throughout China. I would ask this question: Who is getting the protection from the action of this government? I think it is fairly obvious, in the first place, that the profits accruing from this trade must be going to the directors of the Ming Sung Company. I repeat that it is a company which has branches throughout communist China. Quite obviously if they have their branches in communist China, and if those ships are trading even with the port of Canton, then the communist government of China is also getting the benefit from this trade, because it will be taxing the commodities that come in, and the trade going on. So, from the decision made by this government, it is in some measure enabling the government of a country opposed to our troops in Korea to obtain additional revenue.

Then, thirdly, as to the holders of the mortgage, the various banks which are concerned in this matter, they are getting interest on the principal, the principal being something in the neighbourhood of $12,750,000. They are getting interest on that amount of money.

Those are the three groups which in the main are benefited by the fact that the Canadian government took ships back under the Canadian flag and continued to underwrite the loans which had been made. I was not quite clear on one point when it was stated that the Chiang Kai-shek or nationalist government of China had abrogated its responsibility. I think that is what the Secretary of State for External Affairs said with regard to the original guarantee that had been given. Does that mean that Canada has taken over the whole of the guarantee which was given originally?

I understand that Canada accepted only . fifty per cent of that guarantee.

I repeat that far from being penitent, as I think the Secretary of State for External

Affairs would like me to be, or far from being sorry for having introduced this subject-I do not think he need take that attitude-I think it has been a discussion of value. It has been heated at times, but I do think that it has drawn to the attention of the government and of the people of Canada a situation which needs correcting and which in my humble opinion it is within the power of the government to correct.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

George Taylor Fulford

Liberal

Mr. Fulford:

I should like to ask the

Secretary of State for External Affairs if ships flying the flags of other nations in the United Nations are plying on this triangular route? I refer particularly to ships flying the stars and stripes, or flags of the commonwealth or of France. It seems to me tha. this is a well established trade and that there are ships of many nations, including members of the United Nations, engaged in it.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

Lester Bowles Pearson (Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. Pearson:

To the best of my knowledge there are a great many ships still engaged in the China trade. All those members of the United Nations which have accepted the obligation of preventing strategic materials getting to China do not carry such materials on their ships running into communist China at this time. There is no complete embargo on trade with China, so far as I know.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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LIB

George Taylor Fulford

Liberal

Mr. Fulford:

I ask that question to indicate that others are engaged in the same kind of trade.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Drew:

Reference was made by the

parliamentary assistant to the minister to the debate which took place on April 7, 1949. That debate, of course, did not relate in any way to the major consideration which is before us today.

Topic:   UKRAINIAN CATHOLIC EPISCOPAL CORPORATION OF SASKATCHEWAN
Subtopic:   DEPARTMENT OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
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June 15, 1951