Mr. Pearkes:

But not the $3 million.

Mr. Claxton:

No.

Mr. Drew:

Is the minister in a position

to give us a list of those items that are 80709-3011

Supply-National Defence included in the $329 million? If he were able to give us a list, we would then have the same information that we are furnished with in the estimates to which he referred us on page 273, where we are able to see the exact deduction in relation to a particular item.

Mr. Claxton:

No. Those are estimates.

Mr. Drew:

Those are what?

Mr. Claxton:

Estimates.

Mr. Drew:

They are all estimates that we are dealing with.

Mr. Claxton:

Yes.

Mr. Drew:

That is the best answer that

we have had this year: we are dealing with estimates. Of course we are. What I am asking is, whether we can have the estimated details of the deductions. Let us keep together on this matter as much as possible.

Mr. Claxton:

Surely.

Mr. Drew:

If the minister is able to say

with certainty-and he has-that there is included in the figure of $329 million, the figure which the hon. member for Greenwood just moved should be deducted from the $3,350,000 appearing on page 269, then he must have some records that show it. If he has those records, he can then give us those records. Then we will be able to go along, item by item, and know what deductions are included in the $329 million as against the particular items that we will be examining. Either the minister knows what is included or he does not. If he knows what is included, there must be a list of detailed figures that make up the $329 million. Has he those figures available?

Mr. Claxton:

I can give the hon. member

the way in which the $329 million is arrived at, and I can give it to him, for example, with regard to the navy, the army, the air force, defence research and administration.

Mr. Drew:

All right.

Mr. Claxton:

Then I can tell, him that,

in the calculation of the items relative to manpower, the figure is worked out on the basis of the anticipated intake and the anticipated cost of food, allowances and so on. With regard to construction, what we do there is to arrive at the total program and then make an estimate across the board, based on our current experience, as to how much we are likely to complete. The same thing is done with regard to equipment. I can therefore tell him the basis on which the figure is arrived at, and from that the details could be worked out if that was desirable and useful.

Supply-National Defence

Mr. Drew:

I think it is most desirable and most useful, Mr. Chairman. In fact, I think there is an obligation resting on members to ask for and to get this information before passing these estimates. We are told tonight, for the first time, that this item of $3,350,000 described as being for acquisition and construction of buildings and works including acquisition of land, is for a new national defence headquarters here in Ottawa. Then we are told that of that amount, $1,450,000 is to be spent. Then the minister tells us that while it is true that this figure shown on page 269 is not to be spent or that it is not anticipated that it will be spent in 1951-52, there is in fact a deduction made in respect of the amount which it is not expected will be spent, and that that deduction, while not shown separately, is included in the bulk figure of $512,170,835 appearing at page 275. Let us examine that figure. That figure is made up of two items. The sum of $183,050,000 is to be provided from section 3 of the Defence Appropriation Act, 1950, as supplemented by item 246. That is not a variable factor. The variable factor comes in next. It is:

Estimated amount for commitments nominally to fall due during the fiscal year, in accordance with the program detailed above, but not required for actual expenditure in that year, $329,120,835.

The minister has told us that the amount by which the figure of $3,350,000 exceeds the actual amount to be spent this year is to be found in that figure. All I am pointing out is that if he can say that definitely, then he must have some set of figures and some statement which makes it possible for him to tell us that this is so. For that very reason I suggest that, in discussing the other items, it is essential that we know how this item of $329,120,835 is made up.

Mr. Claxion:

I can give my hon. friend the information quickly and shortly with regard to the item under consideration, for administration. Of the item for administration totalling $13,419,162 appearing at page 269, the only item included in that $329,120,835 is $1,900,000 applicable to this item for construction in respect of the national defence headquarters. All the other is for cash.

Mr. Drew:

But, Mr. Chairman, that does not tell us how that figure is made up. The minister has quite properly informed us that these figures are prepared by those who actually do the detailed estimating of these items. But after all, he is asking the committee to accept certain figures. This figure was not just pulled out of some grab bag; the figure must be related to some understandable process of computation. I am simply asking that

[Mr. Claxton.l

the minister inform us in a clear and understandable way how the figure of $329 million is arrived at.

Mr. Claxion:

I have already done that with regard to the item under discussion, Mr. Chairman. I have said that the only provision made in the item of $329 million is the $1,900,000 in respect of national defence headquarters in so far as the figure for administration appearing at page 269 is concerned. With regard to the others, as we come to them in the navy, the army and the air force, I can give both the totals and the way in which they are arrived at. I think that should be plain enough.

Mr. Drew:

If that is so, it is obvious that the minister has a list of the items that make up the total of $329 million. I am pointing out to him that we would be able to proceed in a much more orderly way if we were furnished with that list now; then, as we proceed, we can compare the amount that is included in this total of deductions as set off against the particular items that we will be considering.

Mr. Claxion:

I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, but I have not such a list. I thought I had indicated that. But I can give the information, I believe, as we pass along to each branch. It has not been sorted out in the way the hon. member would like it, but we have it; and I have given it with regard to the item under discussion, for administration. The commitment authority in respect of the present fiscal year, which we do not expect to expend and which is included in the sum of $329 million, is the one item of $1,900,000 in respect of this building under discussion.