Mr. Knowles:

Does the minister not mean the national library?

Mr. Hodgson:

The sum of $41,000 was voted for this bibliographic centre last year. The minister should have more information about it than has been given so far.

Civil service commission-

75. Salaries and contingencies of the commission, including the chairman of the civil service commission and two civil service commissioners at $2,000 each, additional to chapter 53, statutes of 1947 and to provide for continuance in office of C. H. Bland as chairman of the civil service commission

Supply-Secretary of State from September 6, 1951 to March 31, 1953, the date of expiry of the term of ten years for which he was last appointed, $1,664,586.

Mr. Knowles:

Under this item with respect to the civil service commission I should like to ask the Secretary of State a question or two. It has been represented to me that in connection with the economy drive on the part of the government, a drive the effects of which are felt most of all by the employees in the civil service, a certain practice is followed. As I understand it, the practice is this: When a vacancy occurs in a certain position, very frequently the civil service provides a replacement at a lower grade, and accordingly at a lower salary. The result is that in some departments of government you will have two people working side by side and doing precisely the same job, but one grade two and the other grade one, or one grade two and the other grade three, and therefore subject to a salary differential of $20 or $25 a month. The representations made to me are to the effect that that is not very good for the morale of civil servants.

If this practice is being carried on, it seems to me to be an unwise one. If the Secretary of State knows anything about it and would comment on it now I would appreciate it. If not, I hope he will take the matter up with the civil service commission and see what can be done about it.

Mr. Bradley:

I have no knowledge whatever that any such practice is being undertaken at this time, but I will certainly make inquiries about the matter.

Mrs. Fairclough:

I should like to speak to the Secretary of State about the composition of the commission. I noticed today that the chairman's term expired or would expire normally on September 6, 1951, and has been extended for approximately a year and a half. I believe I am correct in saying that at that time he is due for retirement.

A couple of weeks ago I put a question on the order paper with reference to the number of employees, male and female, who are under the jurisdiction of the civil service commission. An order for return was passed towards the latter part of last week. Unfortunately, I have not received it up to the present time. However, judging by the general complexion of employees as I have observed them I would think it must be nearly fifty-fifty. I would ask the Secretary of State whether in the course of the next year and a half, before the retirement of the chairman, earnest consideration will be given to the appointment of a woman commissioner to this commission when the first vacancy occurs.

4972 HOUSE OF

Supply-Public Printing and Stationery

Mr. Bradley:

I will undertake to give some consideration to the request.

Mr. Harkness:

I have a number of questions to ask on this item. I asked quite a lot of questions in connection with this department. As a matter of fact I think I got two sessional papers, 107C and 107D which contained 24 questions altogether. Ten of these were dealt with by the Department of Public Works, and the other fourteen, perhaps I had better say, were deftly evaded by the department of public printing and stationery, and as a result of the fact that the returns were so uncommunicative in their answers I am forced to try to get the information at this time. The first question was:

How many new employees will the new government printing bureau plant have?

The answer to that was:

As the completion of the new departmental building is not expected for a considerable time, it is not possible to foresee what the printing requirements of the government will be two or three years hence, nor the nature of the equipment that may be available. Consequently it is not possible at this time to determine how many new employees will be required.

Well, the department of public printing and stationery of course must have drawn up plans for this building and how they were going to operate things. They must have some general idea of what expansion in their staff is going to be required, and how this enormous new building, which is under construction at the present time, is going to operate. I would like the minister first of all to give me any information they have in regard to what the increase in the staff is going to be from the present number of 1,043, which is given in answer to the second question in this return.

Mr. Bradley:

This building will not be completed for some time, and we do not know what changes will take place in printing practices in the meantime. It is utterly impossible to give any intelligent idea as to just what the staff will be two, three or four years hence. The only thing I can suggest to the hon. member is that as of March 31, 1950, the total number of employees was 991. At this date it is 1,062. What the increase will be in the next three or four years we could not undertake to estimate at the moment.

Mr. Harkness:

As I say, Mr. Chairman,

it seems to me that the department of public printing and stationery must have some idea of the expansion of the staff that is going to

take place, and that is the thing that I am complaining about. There was practically the same sort of answer, or an answer along that line, to every question that I asked. They could not answer it. In any event the third question in this return was:

(a) Where will the bureau secure its new employees?

(b) Does it propose to train them, or depend upon hiring workers from private plants?

The answer I received was as follows:

(a) Appointments to clerical and printing trades positions on the staff of the department are made by the civil service commission.

That is a lovely answer as to where they will secure these new employees. Then they go on to say:

(b) Policy to be determined in the light of circumstances existing when the new building is available.

I think one thing is quite clear. They are going to require more employees to man this terrific institution they have at the present time. Have they any policy or any idea whatever how they are going to get these new employees? Are they going around to private printers and say: Here, John Jones,

you come and work for us? In other words, are they going to rob the local printers, or are they going to take people and train these people themselves?

Mr. Bradley:

This is a matter, as has

been pointed out in the return, which is under the jurisdiction of the civil service commission. When we need employees in the printing bureau the civil service commission undertakes to get them, and advertises in the newspapers in the usual way, an examination takes place, and in that way a selection is made for every job for which we require a new man. That is all I can say about it. I do not know that there is anything further that it is possible for me to say.

Mr. Harkness:

There are quite a number

of people who are interested in this matter. I believe the printing trades union are interested in it, and the printing firms, and all sorts of people [DOT] are interested in it. The minister should be able to say something further in connection with it. The next question was:

How do bureau rates of pay compare with commercial scales elsewhere?

The answer was:

The Public Printing and Stationery Act provides that no increase of wages shall be made so as to raise the rate above that which is, at the time of such increase, paid for similar work in the cities of Montreal and Toronto. Rates paid to prevailing rate employees during the last fiscal year were based on rates prevailing in Ottawa for similar work.

What was the rate paid to these people?

Mr. Bradley:

The rate at that time was

Mr. Harkness:

What was the $1.50 for?

Is that for bindery men, printers or what?

Mr. Bradley:

That was for journeyman

printers.

Mr. Harkness:

What were the rates for

other trades?

Mr. Bradley:

Some of the assistants would get a lower wage, of course. I think the assistants were then getting $1.35, or something like that, but I do not remember exactly. They are really all journeyman printers.

Mrs. Fairclough:

Do I understand that this rate was supposed to be the rate prevalent in union shops in Ottawa-$1.50 an hour for journeyman printers?

Mr. Bradley:

Yes.