March 4, 1952

PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

That would be simple. It

would not leave to the minister freedom to determine the question. It could then be determined by principle.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
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LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. Gardiner:

The act now says "fair and

reasonable value" which could be even higher than the commercial value or lower as the case may be.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
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PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

Yes; or lower as the case

may be.

In other words the minister himself in defining the meaning of those words indicates that the valuation placed upon these animals could be even less than the commercial value. I submit that by the compensation we are giving these unfortunate farmers in this area our intention should be to make up to them the economic value of the animals destroyed. This is an act of confiscation. It is not expropriation or anything like that, where fair and reasonable compensation is allowed under the common law, as the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond said. Here we go in and destroy a farmer's herd, taking away his livelihood. Certainly in that case he should be compensated to the extent of the economic value of that herd which would take into consideration the intangibles to

which reference has been made already. I therefore move a further amendment in order to make sure the farmers will not receive compensation which may be less than the commercial value of the animals. I move that the following words be added at the end of section 2 (1), after the words "governor in council":

but in no case to be less than tile economic value of the animal or animals at the time that foot-and-mouth disease was diagnosed as such.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

It is after eleven o'clock, Mr. Chairman, and I think we should have a little time to think this over. We could not possibly get the bill through all its stages tonight.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. Abbott:

The amendment is obviously out of order.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

We could have an argument about that for a while.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

In any event we could not get the bill through tonight.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. Gardiner:

I do not know whether I am asking too much, but would the committee agree to sit another twenty minutes or half an hour in order to clean this up? We are most anxious to get into a position to go ahead with what this provides for, and I do not think we will get any further by discussing it much longer. The amendment provides for spending more money than is already provided for in the bill, and I think it is obvious to everyone that there is a definite ruling on that point in connection with amendments.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

The question of whether this is in order has been raised, and even that may involve some discussion. I am not going to discuss it now-

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
LIB

Douglas Charles Abbott (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. Abbott:

The point the minister has made is quite obvious.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Coldwell:

-but it is eight minutes after eleven now, and I do not think we can finish the bill tonight, though I would like to do it. There may even be some discussion on third reading.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
LIB

James Garfield Gardiner (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. Gardiner:

In spite of what has been said in the house and particularly from the opposition side, to the effect that we have not been handling this thing as it might have been handled, for the last four nights I have had to work long after midnight and be back here for work again the next day. If the committee does not want to clean it up and get it into operation, all right; but I think we ought to go ahead and clean it up.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Eleven o'clock.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Perhaps I should give my ruling now. Either this amendment

Foot-and-mouth disease involves increased expenditure or in my opinion it is absolutely valueless. There is a well known rule in that connection cited in paragraph 437 of Beauchesne's Parliamentary Rules and Forms, third edition:

No principle is better understood than the constitutional obligation that rests upon the executive government, of alone initiating measures imposing charges upon the public exchequer.

Then in paragraph 453 at page 171 a well known rule is cited which appears in the Journals of 1949:

The tendency has been in the Canadian House of Commons for the past twenty-five years, to rule out all motions purporting to give the government a direct order to do a thing which cannot be done without the expenditure of money.

Regretfully I must rule this amendment out of order because, as I said, either it means an increase in expenditure or it is absolutely valueless.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Eleven o'clock.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
LIB

Louis-René Beaudoin (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Deputy Chairman:

Shall section 2 as amended carry?

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
PC

John George Diefenbaker

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

No, Mr. Chairman. Now that there is no question about the correctness of the objection raised, the minister having said that the result of the amendment would be that a larger amount of money would have to be paid out of the treasury than otherwise would be the case, it indicates that the farmers are not going to be properly compensated under this act and that the economic value of the animals is not going to be paid. That is one thing we intend to contend for, and the only way we can do so is by moving on third reading that the matter be referred back so that this house will have an opportunity of voting on whether or not the farmers are to be compensated for the economic value of their animals.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink
CCF

Percy Ellis Wright

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Wright:

I have a further amendment to move. The hon. member for Lake Centre has indicated that he intends to call a division on third reading. Therefore I would ask you to call it eleven o'clock, Mr. Chairman. I do not think it is reasonable to expect us to sit until twelve o'clock, which would be the earliest a vote could be taken. As a matter of fact unless the minister accepts the amendment I am going to move I expect I will find it necessary also to call for a vote on third reading, on the amendment I intend to suggest.

Section stands.

Progress reported.

Topic:   ANIMAL CONTAGIOUS DISEASES
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR CONTROL AND EXTIRPATION OF FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE
Permalink

It being ten minutes after eleven o'clock the house adjourned, without question put, pursuant to standing order.



Wednesday, March 5, 1952


March 4, 1952