Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

It is in here as part of the $246 million, if my addition is correct, and I tried to do my best to add it up. I think the minister will find that it is part of the $246 million, although the minister now says that it is not a budgetary item. I do point out it is included in the $246 million, and as such has gone out to the public as part of the supplementary estimates which we are now asked to vote.

I want to mention one further thing in passing. We have heard of the $722 million surplus. I do not know what we are going to be told is the final state of that, whether the final stage will be found to be larger than the first. It has been suggested it might be cut down a good deal. When the minister does explain it, if in fact it is reduced, I hope he will also explain what he said in February in his broadcast. As I read it in my simple way, it seemed to me he had explained that the $722 million had been very fortunate for the taxpayers of Canada, because, he said, it had made it possible for the federal government to do its national duty without invading the already tight capital market. In other words, if I understand the minister correctly, he indicated to us then that the moneys had been spent.

I should like to make one comment on the surplus. There are few of us who can arrange our own income to the extent the minister can. Perhaps that is a very comfortable position for the Minister of Finance, but it has its dangers too. What I mean is this, Mr. Speaker. After some reasonable representations to the contrary, last April the

minister did in fact add substantially to our taxes. I refer particularly to the sales and excise taxes. He did thereby add substantially to prices. In fact, if you take the whole effect of the year we had an increase in gross national product of $3,200 million, of which about $2 billion was represented by a rise in prices. To most of us that is very painful, except to those who are speculating and who are buying and selling on a rising market. It is not painful to the minister who gets a very large increase in his revenue. The Minister of Finance has been frank to point out to us that his increased revenues were, in fact, substantially due to higher prices.

Mr. Speaker:

Order. Is the hon. member now discussing the problem of financing generally? I am afraid this will lead to a budgetary debate. I do not know what the arrangement was between the leaders of the parties as to my leaving the chair today without question put. Of course there is nothing before the chair at the present time.

I merely draw that to the attention of the hon. member, because I do not think he desires that we should have a general debate on financial matters at this time.

Mr. Drew:

Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact the Minister of Finance spoke to me, as I have no doubt he spoke to the leaders of the C.C.F. and Social Credit parties, I think I should say that there was no mention of the possibility of not having any discussion before Your Honour left the chair.

Mr. Abbott:

That is quite right, Mr. Speaker. Of course it is not necessary that a motion be put for Your Honour to leave the chair today. My understanding was that, by unanimous consent, we would proceed in committee of supply and ways and means to deal with the two items of interim supply and the supplementary estimates. I assumed that the discussion could range over any field that could properly be brought up under that head. I did indicate to the leaders the reasons why both supply bills had to be passed by both houses and receive royal assent before the end of the fiscal year. Aside from that, the hon. member is quite right, and the field is wide open for discussion.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

Perhaps I could help by saying that I am just finishing my general remarks. I now wish to make one or two suggestions which I hope will aid the consideration of the items.

If I may just finish the comment I was making, it is this. Contrary to the rest of us, the minister gets tremendous boost from rising prices. I think we should remind ourselves, therefore, that it is not possible for the Minister of Finance, who after all is

naturally anxious to have a surplus, to have that detestation for inflation that the rest of us ordinary mortals have.

I want to make one or two brief suggestions about dealing with these estimates. I said that we object to their being brought down too late. I am afraid that we must face the fact that we have no feeling of sympathy with the government in trying to help them beyond a certain point. But on the other hand we have a great feeling of sympathy for anyone who is dependent upon getting these estimates through in order to get wages or salaries. We have, therefore, studied these estimates and have suggestions to make. We would distinguish between those which we think are of immediate urgency and those we think are not so urgent. While we are not foreclosing our rights to ask questions and discuss any of the items involved, in the case of those we think are urgent, for the reasons I have given, we are anxious to facilitate the passage of those items in so far as we can. We consider as urgent those items for producer assistance, wages or salaries or pensions of any kind.

If the minister will assure us that any item which I shall suggest is not urgent, in fact is for payments such as I have indicated, salaries or wages, we shall take his word for it and regard it as an urgent item. Actually I believe the minister will see that we have not gone out of our way to try to pick out items as not urgent. Most of them are indicated as urgent. I would just take a moment to indicate some of those that we think are urgent, and then indicate one or two examples of those which we think are not urgent. After that I suggest that we go through the items and when we come to one which we suggest to the minister is not urgent, we will ask him if he will allow it to go to the foot of the list and then he could make up his mind whether or not he agrees.

On page 1 of the supplementary estimates, item No. 563, which has to do with the foot-and-mouth disease, is urgent. We regard the subsidies to cold storage warehouses as urgent, and also the agricultural lime assistance. We have not done this in an arbitrary fashion. On the other hand, I could give one or two illustrations of cases which we think are not urgent. We cannot believe it is a matter of either twenty-four or forty-eight hour urgency that item 580 should be dealt with. It is concerned with commission for payment of interest. The payment of interest might be very urgent, but not this item.

Mr. Abbott:

It is to pay printing bills.

Interim Supply

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

Then, on page 5 of the supplementary estimates there are items dealing with certain indemnities for the Senate and the House of Commons. I am sure that all members will agree there is nothing urgent about that. I have taken it up with the authorities, and find that it does not affeot any member of the staff but only the members of the Senate and House of Commons. I feel sure that they would gladly go to the foot of the list.

I have tried to indicate that we are really co-operative, though we sometimes have to say somewhat critical things about the government; we always do it more in sorrow than in anger. We do want to co-operate, but with the reservation that we are not going to be panicked. As I say, co-operation does not involve acting in a mechanical manner. I hope the minister will agree with us when we come to those items we have marked as not urgent that we have tried to take a reasonable view regarding them.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.

Mr. Abbott moved:

Resolved, that a sum not exceeding $526,696,879.17, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the several items to be voted, as set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1953, laid before the House of Commons at the present session of parliament; and in addition thereto, a sum not exceeding $2,395,833.33, being five-twelfths of the amount of item 37, a sum not exceeding $526,420, being one-third of the amount of items 25, 448, a sum not exceeding $340,890.17, being one-sixth of the amount of items 209, 212, 213, and a sum not exceeding $257,602.41, being one-twelfth of items 62, 450, 452 of the said estimates be granted to Her Majesty on account of the fiscal year ending March 31, 1953.

He said: Mr. Chairman, the bill to be founded on this resolution is in the usual form. It will provide for one-sixth of all the items to be voted in the main estimates for the fiscal year 1952-53; an additional five-twelfths of one special item in respect of which charges will come for payment within, the first few months of the year, that is freight assistance on feed grain; an additional one-third of two special items for services coming for payment within the first few months of the year, those items being the compensation for animals slaughtered and items in connection with the international trade fair; an additional one-sixth of three special items which are to cover sessional expenses of the Senate and the House of Commons on which the heaviest payments fall due in the early months of the fiscal year; an additional one-twelfth of three special items which are for services of a

Interim Supply

seasonal nature covering citizenship and immigration, trade and commerce, electricity and gas inspection service and weights and measures division.

The general proportion of one-sixth, of course, as is usual is intended to provide for all necessary ordinary requirements of the public service to the end of May. The additional proportions requested for certain special items which I have indicated are necessary due to the seasonal and sessional services affected, and in no instance is the total amount of any item being released.

The form of the bill will be the same as the bill introduced at this time last year and for the previous year, except for the dropping of a section which authorized the raising of loans for the purpose of redeeming prior loans or obligations. That activity, commencing April 1, 1952, will be carried on under the authority of the new Financial Administration Act.

The passing of this bill will not prejudice the rights and privileges of members to criticize and discuss any item in the estimates which will come up for consideration from time to time during the remainder of the session. The usual undertaking is hereby given that such rights and privileges will be respected and will not be curtailed or restricted in any way as the result of the passing of this measure.

The Chairman:

Shall the resolution carry?

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

I wish to ask one question of the minister. There is usually an undertaking given in connection with this matter. At what stage will that be given?

Mr. Abbott:

I have just given it.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

I am sorry; I did not hear it. I thought I was listening, but apparently I was not. Will the minister comment on this point? The minister will perhaps remember that three years ago, when we were on the eve of an election, I raised with him the question of the undertaking which, as I recall it, was that these moneys are voted on the full understanding that parliament will have a chance to review the details. Is that the undertaking to which the minister refers?

Mr. Abboti:

That has always been my understanding. This undertaking is in the form in which it has been given for some thirty years, I understand.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

The minister will remember that there was a difference of opinion between us three years ago as to whether that meant that the undertaking was given to parliament, or to these members sitting in this house.

Mr. Abboii:

I am afraid that is beyond the power of this Minister of Finance or any other minister to say. .

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

Wait a minute; what 1 am referring to is this. There was a misunderstanding; I dislike misunderstandings, and I think it is time to clear it up. After all, the minister can construe the undertaking as well as any man in this house. I apologize for not having heard the words that he used.

Mr. Abboii:

I will read them again.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

If the minister would not mind doing so, he might perhaps read them again.

Mr. Abboii:

These are the words I have used every year since I have been minister, and they are the ones which my predecessor also used.

The passing of this bill will not prejudice the rights and privileges of members to criticize and discuss any item in the estimates which will come up for consideration from time to time during the remainder of the session. The usual undertaking is hereby given that such rights and privileges will be respected and will not be curtailed or restricted in any way as the result of the passing of this measure.