Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

Does the minister not think it is perfectly clear that that is an undertaking to give to the men who sit in this house, who are the people who take this action-

Mr. Knowles:

Don't forget the hon. member for Hamilton West (Mrs. Fairclough).

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

I thank the hon. member for his assistance. I should have said, to the lady and the men who sit in this house. I think this is a matter of some importance, Mr. Chairman, because it became of importance three years ago. I should like to have the minister say whether, as I understand it, that wording means that that undertaking is given to those who now agree to take this action.

Mr. Abbott:

If my hon. friend wants my personal interpretation of what those words mean, I shall be happy to give it to him. It is an undertaking to the members of parliament, as such, who may be called upon to consider the estimates which I tabled a week or two ago, that the opportunity to discuss every one of the items in those estimates will be accorded to the members of parliament who are here, available and competent to discuss them. That is my personal interpretation. It may be right or wrong. In any event it is free. There is no charge for it.

Mr. Wright:

It is worth the price.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

The minister is not a lawyer for nothing. What I mean is that he has not wasted his time; but the minister has still not answered my question. He has worded his interpretation in such a way that it is open, I submit, to the construction that he is merely giving an undertaking that either the members who sit here now, or those who might succeed them after a general election, will have the opportunity to review these estimates. I was greatly surprised when that interpretation was given three years ago; and I suggest that if that undertaking means anything, it cannot mean that it is being given to a lot of people who are not here. After all, we are being asked to act. We are being asked to give this blank cheque which we give; but it has been on that undertaking. I confess until three years ago I had no doubt what that undertaking meant, but it was construed then in a way that I had not expected. I would greatly value the minister's opinion, which really he has not given. What I want to know plainly is this. Does the minister regard that undertaking as given to those of us who now vote in our individual capacity, or does he regard it as given to the abstraction of parliament?

Mr. Abbott:

It is an undertaking given to the House of Commons, Mr. Chairman.

The Chairman:

Shall the resolution carry?

Mr. Knowles:

I take it that the minister also gives the undertaking that in no case do these various fractions that he has given add up to twelve-twelfths.

Mr. Abbott:

I said so a moment ago.

Mr. Knowles:

Thank you.

Hon. Douglas Abbott (Minister of Finance) moved

that the house go into committee of ways and means.

Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Dion in the chair.

Mr. Abbott moved:

Resolved, that towards making good the supply granted to Her Majesty on account of certain expenses of the public service for the fiscal year ending 31st March, 1953, the following sums be granted out of the consolidated revenue fund of Canada, namely:

1. The sum of $526,696,879.17, being one-sixth of the amount of each of the items set forth in the main estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1953;

Interim Supply

2. The sum of $2,395,833.33, being five-twelfths of the amount of item 37 of the said estimates;

3. The sum of $526,420, being one-third of the amount of items 25, 448 of the said estimates;

4. The sum of $340,890.17, being one-sixth of the amount of items 209, 212, 213 of the said estimates; and

5. The sum of $257,602.41, being one-twelfth of the amount of items 62 , 450 , 452 of the said estimates, as set forth in the resolution concurred in this day in the committee of supply.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

I should just like to make one comment. Just for the purpose of the record, I think it is desirable to point out that the reason this vote is given without further discussion is in view of the undertaking, even though in a somewhat qualified manner, given by the Minister of Finance that we shall have full opportunity to investigate and to discuss the total number of items when they come before us, and in view of the fact that the amount now voted is merely a small fraction of the total amount required by the government. In other words, Mr. Chairman, I want to make the record clear that this is not a case of any easy granting of money. Full opportunity will be given later to review the estimates, and the amount now given is a small fraction of the total.

Mr. Speaker:

When shall the bill be read the third time?

Mr. Abbott:

Now, by leave.