Mr. Green:

What were you called?

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

First of all, a liar, and then all kinds of things.

Mr. Green:

Not in the house.

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

That was in the press. Certain of my officials came to my office and said I should not take the blame for that. They said: "If the information you are given by us is not right, we would rather take the blame." I said: "No, you cannot do that.

I am the man who is administering the department." I may say here that I try to be the boss of that department and I am going to take any responsibility or blame that may be put on me. Those men will be in the service of the department long after I have reached-

Mr. Green:

When you are in the exchequer court.

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

If you were making the appointments I would hope you would be right; but you have not that authority yet and I will have to wait. However, I may be out of public life a long time while these gentlemen will be serving the department. I do not say they are perfect and I do not say they do not make mistakes; but, my goodness, they have not been criticized since I have been in the department. I do not think they are the greatest people ever, but statements have been made which are not very good for the morale of people who are doing their best.

Even if they make mistakes on dates, for instance, and tell me that this was done a certain date or another date when it was not, I am going to take the blame. I do not want them blamed for those details. If there were wrongdoing, of course, the law would follow its course, but I have nothing on which to base a change of mind regarding the officers of my department.

Mr. Green:

The minister has made a very pleasant little speech but perhaps he could answer my question. I want to know whether he is going to use the money which was held back on a contract which had

Supply-Public Works been duly completed in order to make payments out to sub trades; or is he going to gobble up that money and allocate it to help finish another contract?

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

The government does not need so much help, you know. The answer is that if I become convinced that material suppliers and subcontractors have claims in regard to certain buildings, and if there are holdbacks in excess of the amount needed, I am sure the department and the government will consider the matter seriously. Further than that I cannot go.

Mr. Green:

The minister says the government will consider it very seriously but I suspect they have been considering the problem rather seriously for the past few weeks. Apparently they have not reached much of a decision. Surely the minister should be in a position to tell the committee today whether he is going to take money which has been held back on a contract which has been completed and pay it over to the subtrades and material suppliers who have been done out of their money by this man Lunam.

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

Do you want me to

give the answer-

Mr. Green:

Yes.

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

-that I gave when I spoke on my main estimates?

Mr. Green:

On which?

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

On my main estimates. In connection with these contracts the minister, if he has read the act and knows what it means, is bound by the statute. If you follow that, you read that statute. I am bound by the statute and I cannot go to the right or to the left. I am obliged to follow it. That is what I have been trying to do ever since I have been in the department, and I am going to do that. Certainly I am bound by the contracts the government has approved and signed with the parties, and I am going to follow them.

I am a believer in the tender system and I am not going to depart from it. If you adopt that system of tender, and the lowest tenderer gets the contract, and then you sign a contract, you are bound in two ways. You are bound by the act and you are bound by the contract. If any hon. member wants to stand up and say that the system we follow is not the right one, he will take the responsibility; I will not. I do not think public works could be administered if you gave me discretion, as I have heard it suggested in this chamber, to pay those subcontractors and those suppliers of materials.

It has been suggested to me, "Why not pay them? You have the money." Why should I pose as a judge and-

Mr. Green:

You are going to be a judge.

You might as well start now.

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

The hon. gentleman

is under the impression that I shall be leaving quickly. Twice this morning he has appointed me to the bench.

Mr. Diefenbaker:

And there is no appeal.

Mr. Knowles:

But he is keeping you here.

Mr. Fournier (Hull):

But he is keeping me here just the same. I cannot take unto myself, as a minister, the discretion to settle difficulties between creditors and debtors. If you put me in that position, I would really rather be on the bench. You just put me in an impossible position. You give me a statute to administer; you make me sign contracts; and then you say, "Don't follow them."

Mr. Green:

Nobody is making you do anything.