Mr. Applewhaiie:

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the minister a question on item 148 and perhaps I might be permitted to ask it on item 152 at the same time, as both items deal with the international commissions, dealing amongst other things with halibut in the north Pacific ocean.

When I was speaking briefly on the new treaty with the United States regarding the conservation of halibut-that treaty provides for the appointment of one additional commissioner from Canada-I made a suggestion that I would like to repeat now. May I make it very clear that I have not the slightest criticism to offer about the excellent services rendered to Canada by both commissioners who now represent us. At the same time provision has been made for a third commissioner. Under the so-called Japanese peace treaty, under item 152, commissioners from Canada will be appointed.

I would like to ask the minister whether he will give most serious consideration to making certain that on both commissions there shall be a commissioner who is a practical long-line fisherman from the Pacific coast.

Mr. Sinclair:

Now that the halibut commission membership has been extended it is my intention to recommend to the government that the commissioners be representatives of the federal Department of Fisheries, persons who have practical knowledge of the industry, practical knowledge of fishing. They will not be representatives of the fishing industry but they will be representatives of Canada who have special knowledge of the processing operation and the fishing operation.

The Chairman:

There is a supplementary item here, No. 666. Is it agreed that these items shall be considered together?

Agreed.

666. To authorize the Minister of Fisheries, on behalf of the government of Canada, to enter into an agreement with the government of Newfoundland, subject to the approval of the governor in council, which shall provide for the operation by Newfoundland of the Newfoundland bait services and which may provide for the transfer to Newfoundland of property pertaining thereto; and to provide for a payment to Newfoundland in accordance with the said agreement, $1,250,000.

Mr. Sinclair:

Newfoundland is the only one of the provinces where the governments, either federal or provincial, actually operate the bait service. It was done by the commission of government and since confederation our federal Department of Fisheries has administered the operation. We took over the operation of the bait depots at that time. They are actually a losing proposition and we lose, on an average, about $170,000 a year. The bait depots are very useful as far as the fishermen are concerned and we agreed to take over those depots and operate them without fundamental change. One reason why the losses are increasing is that the type of fishing has changed. They are getting out of bait fishing and more into trawling and seining. Nevertheless there will be great need for these depots for years to come.

Another reason why they lose money is that, unlike bait depots run by industry in other provinces, they have just the single operation of freezing bait. In the maritime provinces these bait depots are associated with cold storage plants where fish is filleted and held. One of the recommendations of the Walsh committee was to try to develop plants around these bait depots which, as well as processing salt cod, would provide outlets for fresh and frozen fish. With that in mind the Newfoundland government approached the federal government and the suggestion was that we would turn back the bait depots to them. Under the amendment to the British North America Act we have the responsibility of seeing that bait service is maintained-but the provincial government in its proposal will obtain leases from those fishing operators in the province who will agree to take over the bait depots and extend them by putting in filleting machines and cold storage warehouses.

To us the proposition seemed a progressive one, providing that the depots were maintained. We entered into negotiations with the premier of Newfoundland on that ground. There has been a little misunderstanding in Newfoundland in one respect. It was thought that a crown corporation was going to be set up. That is not so. This offer is open to any one of the present industry operators in Newfoundland or to any other person who comes forward. The reason we have two

votes in these estimates is that until some agreement is reached which is acceptable to us, with our responsibility under the terms of union, we must continue to operate those bait depots. If during this summer or fall we can work out an agreement which will enable us to discharge our responsibility to the fishermen and at the same time enable these depots to be put on an economic basis and be used for something more than bait depots, we will go ahead with such an agreement.

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):

An announcement made by the Newfoundland papers several days ago said that the government has made agreements in principle with Fisheries Products Limited to assume responsibility for the bait service-hitherto a federal responsibility. Was the minister aware of that?

Mr. Sinclair:

* That statement was drawn to my attention. As a matter of fact, I had a meeting with Premier Smallwood here today on that very subject.

Mr. Macdonnell (Greenwood):

Bring him in.

Mr. Sinclair:

We made it quite clear to the Newfoundland government that our understanding was that if these bait depots are made available they must be made available to all operators down there and not to just one operator.

The Newfoundland government, as you know, in recent years has provided a great deal in the way of loans to a number of operators down there to improve their plants. We did not enter into those agreements, but we think they are very helpful to the plants. We are not prepared to comment on any relations the fishermen may have with any of these companies, but since we have a formal responsibility to see that bait is made available to the fishermen, we will be careful to see that in any arrangement we do enter into the fishermen and other operators in the province will be protected. That is why there is this double vote. Only one will be used. While there may be a change in direction, in accordance with the recommendations in the Walsh report, under the terms of union we still have the fundamental responsibility for seeing that the bait depot service is made available to the fishermen without fundamental change.

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):

This lease has not been made with Fisheries Products Limited?

Mr. Sinclair:

Not as far as we are concerned, nor have the bait depots been turned over. We are still operating the bait depots,

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and we will see any agreement before we enter into it.

Mr. Browne (St. John's West):

He says in this speech:

We have been fortunate in being able to enter into arrangements with a Newfoundland company to assume the responsibility, under a lease, of the bait services which are being transferred to this government.

Mr. Sinclair:

The bait services have not been transferred because we are constitutionally obligated. I can assure the fishermen and the hon. member that we will see that the bait depots are made available to the fishermen without any fundamental change.

Mr. Higgins:

There is just one point to which reference has been made before during the discussion of these estimates, and during the time we were discussing the amendment to the Fisheries Act. It is the question of the use of the ports in Newfoundland by foreign trawlers. I merely wanted to bring this matter to the attention of the minister again. It is important that foreign trawlers, Portuguese and others, be permitted to come in and buy what they want in St. John's. I have a letter here from a reputable person for whom I can vouch, and I should like to quote two paragraphs from it.

The trawler business is of much more value to the economy of St. John's than anyone imagines. I have obtained some figures, and might say, that more than three million dollars is spent in disbursements. The trawlers call here for coal, oil, salt, provisions, and repairs.

In addition to the money spent for the benefit of the ships, the members of the crew all spend a certain amount of money in the stores in St. John's. The captains obtain funds from the agents, and sometimes during a visit of two or three days as much as $3,000 would be spent by one crew.

Then he says:

Included in the sum referred to above was an amount of $145,000 for herring purchased, which was used for bait.

I merely draw this to the minister's attention so he will realize how important it is that foreign trawlers be allowed to come into St. John's, as they always have.

Mr. A.pplevvhaite:

This item is to provide federal government assistance in connection with educational work in co-operative producing and selling. In connection with selling, we have heard a great deal during the discussion of these estimates to indicate that is the greatest practical problem facing the fishing industry today. I do not think there is anybody in Ottawa who knows that better

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than the Minister of Fisheries. I think perhaps I may be permitted to say that there is nobody better qualified to assist in finding markets for our fishermen than the present Minister of Fisheries.

This item is not very large, but it does perform a very valuable service. It is a service that is greatly appreciated by the fishermen on the Pacific coast, who would like to see it extended. It can only be extended, of course, if more funds are available. The minister is, I think, by training and at heart, an economist and therefore he will know that it is good economy and good government to help people to help themselves. That is what this item will do. I have a long letter in my hand from the Prince Rupert fishermen's co-operative association. I am not going to read it all, but I am going to read the resolution they adopted.

I should like to say that, although I do not know anything about the associations on the Atlantic coast, this is undoubtedly the soundest association of its kind in British Columbia, and most likely in Canada. When I say "sound" I do not mean only sound financially, I mean sound in their thinking. The resolution which they adopted reads:

Whereas the federal Department of Fisheries has recognized the need for co-operative education amongst the fishermen of Canada, and;

Whereas the grant made for the purpose of progressing this work on the B.C, coast has only permitted a limited program, and;

Whereas the serious situation facing the fishermen's co-operative association has evidenced the need for a more extensive program,

Therefore be it resolved that this annual general meeting of the Prince Rupert fishermen's co-operative association urgently request the Department of Fisheries to increase the grant for co-operative education amongst fishermen on the B.C. coast and to ensure the wider application of this program.

I should like to ask the minister how much of the vote was spent on the Pacific during the past year; and during the present year how much of the vote is it estimated will be spent on the Pacific? I should like to urge him to take whatever action is possible to increase the vote, and certainly increase the amount available for this work on the Pacific.

Mr. Bryce:

I should like to ask the minister why this vote, which is to provide for educational work in co-operative producing and selling, cannot be extended to Manitoba. I have mentioned this point on different occasions when previous estimates were under discussion, and I have always been told that, since Manitoba controls her own fisheries, we have no right to that money. I do not think that is right. This $80,000, whether or not it is spent, is there in the estimates and must come out of the consolidated revenue fund.

I do not think it should make any difference

whether the fisherman is in Prince Rupert, Vancouver, Halifax or where he is. If the money can be used for adult education amongst fishermen, I think the minister should see that the prairies get a share of it. We need education there just as well as they do on the Atlantic or Pacific coast.

I should like the minister to tell me if some of it could be made available so we could start a program.

Mr. Sinclair:

Actually I answered the hon. member for Selkirk last night, but he had left the chamber. I answered him because he had raised this particular problem when we had our general debate on fisheries. This is a vote of $80,000 for assistance in co-operative education in fisheries. We do not initiate the courses at these three universities, St. Francis Xavier, which is almost the home of this movement in Nova Scotia, Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere in Quebec, and the University of British Columbia. The educational authorities there, in co-operation with local groups, have started courses in co-operative education. Then they have asked us to help them, and we have helped them.

I said last night that if one of the prairie universities wanted to start such a course and lay out a program for co-operative education amongst the fishermen, or if there are any large groups in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta who would like to form a co-operative group and ask us to help, we will be glad to help. The matter of the provincial control of fisheries is not a factor so far as I am concerned, because we do help Ste. Anne de la Pocatiere in Quebec. However, we do not start the courses, but we are willing to assist. The primary responsibility for education is provincial. If the universities in these provinces are willing to start such courses in cooperative education, they could certainly get assistance in planning those courses from the universities which have them. We will listen to them sympathetically.

I mentioned last night that the next most obvious place was the new university in Newfoundland, Memorial university. The recommendation of the Walsh committee is that we should give substantial assistance to that university in starting a course for the fishermen down there. We certainly will, once the university lays down the courses.

So far as the member for Skeena is concerned, last year we allotted $10,000 to the University of British Columbia. It was not quite all spent. They actually submit bills up to that $10,000. For any extension of their services, they would require a larger appropriation. I understand that the fishermen's co-operative group in British Columbia are approaching the university authorities with

the thought of having an expanded course in the university in the year ahead.

Mr. Higgins:

I wish to make one final remark and thank the minister for his remarks about the new university in Newfoundland. Would he feel it would be wise to include a course in codology down there? Maybe we could create a doctor of codology.