April 13, 1954

THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES

LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Right Hon. L. S. St. Laurent (Prime Minister):

Mr. Speaker, while I appreciate that it is not the practice of the house to pay tribute to the memory of other than members of the current parliament, I hope I may have the indulgence of the house to depart from the strict observance of that practice this afternoon. Exceptions have been made in the past in the case of former members of the house who had distinguished themselves particularly in the house in the service of their fellow Canadians; and I believe that Angus L. Macdonald served this country with such patriotic devotion and such distinction as a member of _ this House of Commons and of the government of Canada during the terrible emergency of the last war that it will be felt fitting that a tribute should be paid to him today.

His sudden death this morning brought to an end an active and particularly brilliant career on the Canadian political scene. We all know that Angus Macdonald won distinction in many fields, notably as a barrister, as a member of the federal government and of this House of Commons during those difficult years of the war, and as premier of his native province of Nova Scotia both before and after the war. Those of us who had the privilege of working with him admired his high qualities, which he placed so unstintingly at the service of his fellow Canadians. And, moreover, we all became deeply attached to him as a dear personal friend.

Angus Macdonald was never a man to spare himself. To the very day of his death he gave all of his great energy to the performance of those duties which have gained for him a permanent place in the history of this country. Canada and Nova Scotia have lost a great public servant, and I am sure members of this house who were his wartime colleagues will join with thousands of Canadians everywhere in sharing in a very personal way the grief of Mrs. Macdonald and their children, and also the government and people of Nova Scotia.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
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PC

George Alexander Drew (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Hon. George A. Drew (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, I know every member in the house will appreciate the fact that the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) has suggested a departure from custom in this instance, because I feel sure we would have been unhappy in our hearts had there not been an expression of this kind on behalf of the members here and the people of Canada generally in respect to the memory of a very great Canadian.

To many of us Angus Macdonald will be remembered even more for his personal qualities than for the great service that he gave. As the Prime Minister has pointed out, he made a tremendous contribution to the-development of the military services of this, country during the war. His role was that of the navy; and from a few small ships he saw that navy expand to a great fleet which contributed immensely to the cause of freedom for the whole world.

But I think perhaps most of us who have been confronted with this sudden news concerning the loss of a dear friend will remember him most for his admirable Scottish characteristics-industry, honesty, integrity and warm friendship. Political opinions never divided Angus Macdonald from those who held different views. Our friendship and respect for him go out at this time in full measure in memory of a man whom we all loved.

I suppose few Canadians had a deeper and more visible affection for Scotland than had Angus Macdonald. He was deeply proud of Scotland, of his Scottish ancestry and of Scottish traditions. In fact, he was a better Canadian because he sought to implant in his native province through his own activities those fine characteristics we all respect, no matter to what blood stock our race may run.

The story, which I believe is true, that I always liked best of Angus Macdonald was that he decided to welcome Ramsay MacDonald in Gaelic when he visited Canada; and having welcomed him in faultless Gaelic, he discovered that Ramsay MacDonald did not understand that ancient language. But it was symbolic of Angus Macdonald's love of Scotland and Scottish traditions that in the new Scotland in Canada he should seek to preserve them on an occasion of that kind. All of us today pay tribute to a truly great

The late Angus L. Macdonald Canadian. In these troubled days we cannot afford to lose men like him. I know that from everyone here with a full heart there will be extended to his widow and the members of his family, the deep and profound sympathy of all of us.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roselown-Biggar):

Mr. Speaker, it is I think very fitting that the Prime Minister has given us an opportunity of paying our respect to a man with whom many of us were associated in this house during the war years. We remember when he came here. lie came here not because he wished to come, but because he was called by the government of Canada to participate in the deliberations of the government in the conduct of the war during a very critical period. We all remember his charm and his integrity, and it came as quite a shock to those of us who knew him to know that another great-and I use the word advisedly- Canadian figure who had served his country so well in the capacity of minister of defence for naval services during the war had passed to his reward. On behalf of all associated with me, and I know on behalf of everyone else in this house, I join in expressing our appreciation of the life that he led, the service that he gave to our country, and our deep sympathy with his widow and family in their great and sudden sorrow.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. J. H. Blackmore (Lethbridge):

Mr. Speaker, the members of our group deem it .entirely fitting that the Prime Minister (Mr. St. Laurent) should have taken this opportunity to honour Angus Macdonald in the way that he has done today. I had the privilege of sitting in the house when he was here, and while he had the responsibility of being minister of defence for naval services. I always associated with Angus Macdonald three words: stability, strength and serenity. The members of our group are pleased to join with the members of the other parties in paying a last farewell to Angus Macdonald and in expressing the most sincere condolences to those who are bereaved.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
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LIB

Charles Gavan Power

Liberal

Hon. C. G. Power (Quebec South):

Mr. Speaker, for some years I was honoured by being associated with Angus Macdonald in the course of our duties as members of this government. Angus left with those of us who were associated with him a memory of a man of intense patriotism without ostentation, forcible character without violence, of loyalty as a colleague and of the foremost natural friendship as a man. It is with the deepest regret that I note the passing of a man who did honour to the Nova Scotia which he loved, and to the Canada which he represented so ably in this house. To his widow

and family, I think I speak on behalf of all those who were in any degree associated with Angus during the time he was here, I express the deepest and most sincere sympathy. He will go to his last resting place, in the soil of the Nova Scotia which he loved, carrying with him the love, the affection and the admiration of thousands of his fellow citizens, and also the word that will go all over Canada that he was a great Canadian.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
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LIB

Robert Henry Winters (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Hon. Robert H. Winters (Minister of Public Works):

Mr. Speaker, this is indeed a day of mourning for Nova Scotians everywhere, and I wish on behalf of my province to thank the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition and those other hon. members who have spoken so feelingly on this sad occasion. All Canadians feel that they are losing a great public figure and a staunch friend.

The Hon. Angus Macdonald was long a symbol of Nova Scotia, and most of us saw in him the reflection of what we ourselves might wish to be. He had that warm and strong personality which easily transcends all differences of race, creed or religion. It was Angus Macdonald who did so much to weld together so many different peoples in Nova Scotia and make us a province that has already been proud of its role in confederation.

Farsighted and wise in his advocacy of the role of Nova Scotia in the life of this great country, he was to me a great friend and a wise counsellor in all those matters respecting Nova Scotia and Nova Scotians. Always a great admirer of Joseph Howe, whose statue stands so nearby his own office, Angus Macdonald will today take his place beside that great figure in the hearts and minds of Nova Scotians everywhere.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
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EXTERNAL AFFAIRS

LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Hon. Stuart S. Garson (Minister of Justice):

Mr. Speaker, hon. members will recall that on February 16, 1954 my colleague, the parliamentary assistant to the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. Pinard), made a statement concerning the handling of the transcript of the proceedings of the meeting on January 4, 1954, at which Mr. Igor Gouzenko was interviewed by representatives of the United States government. In that statement the parliamentary assistant informed the house that in the latter part of January the Canadian government had notified the United States government that we

were prepared, if that government wished, to make public the transcript, with the exception of a few minor deletions, the reasons for which he outlined.

This month a note was received from the United States government requesting that the full transcript, minus our deletions, be made public by the Canadian government as soon as might be possible. I should therefore now like to table copies of this transcript.

In doing so, I should like to remind the house that prior to this interview Mr. Gouzenko had been interrogated exhaustively by security authorities many times, over a period of several years, since he first made himself available to us in the autumn of 1945. The appropriate security authorities of the United States government at all times had access to all Mr. Gouzenko's information without reservation. Although the transcripts of evidence which Mr. Gouzenko gave to the royal commission in 1946 and the reports of his other interrogations by security officers were not themselves made public, the bulk of the information contained in them was made public in the report of the royal commission published in 1946 and in the numerous articles written by Mr. Gouzenko and in the interviews granted by him to representatives of the Canadian and United States press during recent years.

Therefore, it will not be surprising to members of the house that the transcript of Mr. Gouzenko's evidence at this January 4 meeting discloses very little-if indeed there is any-information not already available to the public. Of course it does not disclose any information of a security type not previously known to the Canadian and United States security authorities.

I should explain that the reason why the transcript was not made public previously in view of the considerable interest shown in this meeting, was that the whole object of this meeting was to provide an opportunity to representatives of the United States government to interview Mr. Gouzenko on matters pertaining to the internal security of the United States. It was therefore not considered appropriate for Canada to make the transcript public unless so requested by the United States government, as it has now done.

As already explained to the house by the parliamentary assistant (Mr. Pinard) in his statement of February 16, 1954, a few minor deletions have been made in this transcript, in order to eliminate references either in the questions or in the answers publication of which in this context might jeopardize Canadian security investigations of individuals or

External Affairs

organizations in Canada, or might be open to question on grounds of international propriety as relating primarily to the interests of a third country. In each case these deletions are marked by square brackets with indication of the number of words omitted.

Finally, I should like to say that Mr. Gouzenko has been good enough to read over the transcript and has testified to its completeness and accuracy.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Stanley Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Justice arising out of the statement he made a few moments ago with respect to Igor Gouzenko. In view of the extent to which Mr. Gouzenko has been revealing his identity, in his writings and in interviews, does the government feel there is any useful purpose in continuing to protect his anonymity by means of police protection?

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

Mr. Speaker, I think the question which the hon. member has just asked is not one which is appropriate on the orders of the day without notice.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles:

Perhaps the minister would answer it tomorrow?

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. E. D. Fulton (Kamloops):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Justice a question with respect to the statement regarding the transcript just tabled by the minister with reference to the deletions made for various reasons, including the fact that this might involve a third country. Would the minister say whether more than one such third country was included, or whether only one was included? If so, whether that country was Russia and, if so, why it should be considered necessary to have regard to any feelings in that matter.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

Mr. Speaker, I should think it would be rather obvious to everyone that the reasons for the deletions being made are the same as those which would apply with even greater force in regard to an answer being given to my hon. friend's question.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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CCF

Major James William Coldwell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. M. J. Coldwell (Roseiown-Biggar):

Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a supplementary question in view of the tabling of the transcript of this interview. When Mr. Gouzenko appears on television, as I believe he has done, is any prior, shall I say, censorship exercised over what he says, or may he say what he likes? If so, might not that practice conflict with the kind of precautions which the minister and the government quite properly exercised in regard to interviews?

Mr- Garson: Mr. Speaker, it is a practice which, I think it is fair to say, has never yet

Inquiries of the Ministry conflicted, and I think I should also add that Mr. Gouzenko on every occasion on which he has appeared in court or before this commission, the proceedings of which I tabled today, has always given a very good account of himself as a witness.

ILater: ]

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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LIB

Stuart Sinclair Garson (Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Liberal

Mr. Garson:

Mr. Speaker, this afternoon the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) asked me a question to which I gave an, answer and I should like now, in the interests of greater clarity, to make a correction of that answer to read as follows:

Mr. Speaker, our non-censorship of Mr. Gouzenko is a practice which I think it is fair to say has never yet conflicted; for I should also add that Mr. Gouzenko on every occasion on which he has appeared in court, on television or this examination the proceedings of which I tabled today, has always given a very good account of himself.

Topic:   THE LATE ANGUS L. MACDONALD TRIBUTE TO FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL DEFENCE FOR NAVAL SERVICES
Subtopic:   EXTERNAL AFFAIRS
Sub-subtopic:   IGOR GOUZENKO-RELEASE OF TESTIMONY BEFORE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVES
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PRIVILEGE

MR. FRASER (PETERBOROUGH) REFERENCE TO STATEMENT IN MONTREAL "GAZETTE"


On the orders of the day:


April 13, 1954