Mr. Blackmore:

Failure to sell the gas.

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Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation

Mr. Brooks:

It has been the failure of this government-as they said, by their fumbling and their bumbling-to do what they should have done in the last five or six years. Those are the people who are responsible. Yet those are the people whom they are supporting today to do more fumbling and bumbling as far as this pipe line is concerned.

Mr. Blackmore:

The failure to sell gas.

Mr. Brooks:

Then again, do they think for one minute that as soon as this bill goes through the house this $50,000 a day they speak of will roll into the treasury of the government of Alberta?

Mr. Blackmore:

There will be a great deal more.

Mr. Brooks:

It will depend upon what the United States does. My hon. friend knows this. It will depend on whether the federal power commission of the United States grants the permit to sell 200 million cubic feet of gas to the United States. Consideration may go on for a year or it may go on for years. It may never happen. Alberta will still be losing that $50,000 a day, and they can blame their friends across the way for that loss.

I can also understand some individuals- and I am speaking of no particular individual; many of them have been mentioned- connected with this gas industry in Alberta. I know a good many of them myself. I can understand these people being extremely anxious to get this thing pushed forward. They have a personal interest. They have an axe to grind.

Mr. Blackmore:

They have a national interest.

Mr. Brooks:

They want to gain something, probably, on the investments they have. They know that if this company fails-as it very well could-this thing is going to be saddled on the government and the people of Canada. They know that, and they do not think they are taking any great risk as far as that is concerned. I have nothing to say about Ontario. They are interested. Our provinces are not. Ontario is an interested party. They want gas no doubt for northern Ontario. They have already been sucked into this thing. Perhaps they were unwilling, but they had to come in. Now that they are in, it looks to me as though it might be more or less a Hobson's choice for them to carry on.

Who are the suckers now.

Mr. Brooks:

The people of Canada. An attempt is being made to make them the suckers.

This all leads me to say that I agree with the amendment which was moved the other

day by my friend the hon. member for Prince Albert (Mr. Diefenbaker) and which suggested that first this matter should go to a committee. A few days or a few weeks more spent in discussion of such a great undertaking for the development of this country of ours is not going to make much difference. Years were taken to build the Canadian Pacific Railway. Sir John A. Macdonald had all sorts of trouble-

Mr. MacDougall:

We have heard all that a thousand times.

Mr. Brooks:

It will not hurt you to hear it again. We have heard you a thousand times, too, and it has not been to much advantage. As I was saying, I agree with the hon. member for Prince Albert. We should know what people are going to be supplied. We do not yet know whether the gas is going to go into the United States. That matter could be discussed. We do not know the people who are going to take it in Fort William and Port Arthur.

Mr. Howe (Port Arthur):

You worry about New Brunswick.

Mr. Brooks:

There is talk about Algoma Steel going to take gas. Algoma Steel is. going to pay nearly twice as much for their gas as will companies down in the United States. If the federal power commission allow gas to be exported to the United States, Algoma Steel will still pay almost twice as much as do the people down in the United States. We have not heard from Montreal, the great city of Canada. We do not know how much of this gas is going to be sold in Montreal, which is 2,200 miles from the gas fields of Alberta. It is going to cost the city of Montreal about twice as much for their gas as is paid in Winnipeg or in Saskatchewan. Have we any reason to believe that these people in that city of Montreal are going to rush in with open arms to take this gas from the Trans-Canada company? How about the city of Ottawa? We all live here part of .the time. I have not heard nor have I seen it reported in the press of Ottawa that the people, business or anyone else are rushing in and asking that this gas be brought into the city of Ottawa in the immediate future.

These are things which I say should be considered by a committee. These are things which should be known by the people before they go ahead. These are the questions which are being asked and which I feel should be answered. What about the cost of construction? In 1951 an estimate was given. Since then we have heard other estimates. However, the cost of construction is going up all the time. ,

Mr. MacDougall:

That is why we should not wait.

Mr. Brooks:

We should know just what it is going to cost. There is another thing we ought to know. We have been told many things which we have found out have not been altogether facts. We ought to know whether there are any other companies which are willing to take on the construction of this pipe line. We ought to know whether there is other pipe available as far as these other companies are concerned. There are many other things that should be considered. The opinion of the eastern provinces, of the province of British Columbia and of the province of Quebec should be known.

This bill, Mr. Speaker, is not a trans-Canada or a Canadian pipe-line bill. The province of British Columbia will derive no benefit from it. The province of Quebec will derive very little, if any, benefit from it. They are not clamouring for the gas from this pipe line. The maritime provinces will receive absolutely no benefit from it. These are the things which should be taken into Consideration by any committee examining this matter.

I want to speak for a moment about the situation in the maritime provinces. In 1951 the' maritimes had no criticism of this project, but were pleased and anxious to see that this pipe line was being constructed. Today, when they realize that the government of Canada is willing and ready to lend money to a United States concern to construct a pipe line from Alberta to Winnipeg, and then to help construct the portion in Ontario at a cost of some $160 million, the people of the maritimes want to know why this government could not guarantee the bonds of the province of New Brunswick to permit hydro development in that province when it was so badly needed. That is one question which I think, in fairness to the people of New Brunswick and the people of the maritime provinces, the Prime Minister or someone else should answer in this house.

Not so long ago the Prime Minister referred to the maritime provinces when speaking to the Canadian Labour Congress in the city of Toronto. At that time he pointed out that the rest of Canada felt that there had been certain neglect of the eastern provinces, and he felt that something should be done about it. There should be economic redevelopment in the eastern provinces, and special measures should be taken. He also went on to say, and it sounded very logical and reasonable, that the people of the eastern provinces should state just what they wanted and that would be given careful consideration by the federal government. _

Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation

I have sat in this house for 20 years, and I have heard repeatedly from members from the maritime provinces. Time and time again they have told this government what they felt was needed for the development of the maritime provinces. The Prime Minister must know. The Prime Minister has taken part in federal-provincial conferences, and there has not been one provincial government from the maritimes that has not had a long list of things it felt the federal government could do to greatly benefit the people in that area.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is a lot the federal government can do to help our people. Those things are well known. In the face of what is happening in this parliament today there is no excuse whatever for this federal government not giving assistance to these little provinces down by the sea which are having such a hard struggle to build up their economy. As I said a moment ago, the government is helping a great United States company which promised the people of Canada and the government that they, without any financial assistance, would build this pipe line. This company must have hundreds of millions of dollars at its disposal today which could be used to build this pipe line without federal government aid. This same government refused aid to the little province of New Brunswick, which is trying to develop hydro facilities in order to process the great natural resources being found there at the present time. I say it is unfair to the people of our province, and that is one angle which should be considered and discussed by this government.

There is another matter which I should like to discuss, but I have not much time. The hon. member for Provencher (Mr. Jut-ras), in what I call a speech full of cheap political claptrap, said we were opposed to United States capital. We welcome United States capital into this country, and we have said so time and time again. What we object to is this. We object to United States capital coming in here, buying up all our natural resources and siphoning them out of the country, because it is a well known fact that when your natural resources are taken out of the country your people leave. What we want is more United States capital. In New Brunswick we do not want our minerals to be shipped out of the country. We want United States capital to come in and build smelters and refineries in that area. That is what we want, and that is what we want for this Dominion of Canada.

I can give you an example of United States capital. They own the great Knob mine in Labrador and have built a railroad, which

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Northern Ontario Pipe Line Corporation should have been built by the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian people, because that is going to be one of the richest parts of the Dominion of Canada. But they own the mines, the railways and the ships at Seven Islands which take the ore from Canada to the United States to be smelted. Those are the things to which we object, Mr. Speaker, not United States capital coming into this country but United States capital taking most of our natural resources out of this country for the employment of their own people and not for the employment of the people here.

Now, Mr. Speaker, my time is up. This bill should be sent to a committee to be studied; there is no question about that'. If there ever was a case of "heads you win, tails I lose"- which the minister mentioned in reverse the other day-we in the maritimes feel that this is such a case. We want this matter thoroughly discussed in a committee so that every angle can be studied, and so that the people of Canada will know where they are going with relation to this bill.

Hon. W. E. Harris (Minister of Finance):

Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Drew) invited me to take part in this debate and I gladly do so. I would have done so anyway, but I should like to read the invitation he extended to me. I quote from page 3869 of Hansard:

I should like to hear from the Minister of Finance just how enthusiastic he is about this proposal. I should like to hear from him how well he likes the idea of Canadian taxpayers' money being put up to assure the control of one of our greatest resources by investors in the United States.

Mr. Speaker, there never has been a more inaccurate statement put in the form of a question than that which has been made by the Leader of the Opposition.

Mr. Drew:

It is accurate.

Mr. Harris:

The hon. member for Proven-cher delivered an excellent speech this afternoon, and I shall have to repeat a little of what he said.

Mr. Knowles:

Order.