Mr. Hamilton (York West):

Mr. Chairman, perhaps I might be allowed to take one or two minutes in connection with this item. I think my remarks will relate to it.

Last evening I read a very interesting article which appeared in the Toronto Evening Telegram of that date, written by Mr. James M. Minifie. The title of the article is "And Now: The Ultimate Missile". Mr. Minifie was referring to material which apparently he had at his disposal in Washington in connection with the ICBM, the intercontinental ballistic missile, and he referred to the fact that giant strides were being made in connection with a counter missile that would require the very best and latest type of radar detection in order to be put to work.

In his article Mr. Minifie mentioned that minutes would be very vital in connection with the detection of the ICBM by the counter missile, and apparently the indications are that a new D.E.W. line will be required located 500 or 600 miles farther north than the one which is being constructed at the present time. I might read from this article

his reference to the fact that a new D.E.W. line would be required. Mr. Minifie says:

Success in this fantastic project-

That is the development of a counter missile; those are my words, Mr. Chairman. -would have important repercussions in Canada. For one of the essentials would be another D.E.W. line, 500 or 600 miles farther north, running from Ellesmere island westward out over the Arctic ice. This sea area is regarded by Canada as Canadian territory on the sector principle by which eastern and western boundaries are carried northwards to the pole.

The United States however does not recognize this principle, and might not concede Canada's claim if it were formally presented which has not yet been done.

The indication further on in the article is that the chief of research and development of the United States army, Lieutenant General James M. Gavin, is thinking of the same thing because he is quoted as saying:

As we look ahead we see considerable pay-oft in being able to put stations out on the polar ice cap to detect missiles early in their flight, perhaps detect them at the instant of take-off.

The ability to live out there, to reinforce out there, to explore and patrol out there may be of great importance to us in the immediate future in fact.

Mr. Minifie goes on to say:

Thus consideration is being given by the United States armed services to American military occupation of an area which Canada considers its own.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Calgary North dealt with the over-all picture in the northern area, and the fact that there is considerable concern as to the continuation of at least the show of Canadian sovereignty in that area.

We now have an indication that a further step is being planned, and I do not think the hon. member for Calgary North referred to this. Here is a situation in which we are now informed that steps may be required to be taken in the foreseeable future by the country to the south of us in order to provide a form of continental defence for all of us which may bring into dispute two theories concerning the ownership of the polar ice cap north of the Canadian land mass. Mr. Minifie's article indicates that it might be wise to make plans here to ensure that when the time comes there will be no dispute concerning our claims to sovereignty in this area, and to establish it beyond any question of doubt.

I would ask the minister if any steps have been taken to consider this problem, if there have been any discussions between his department and any department in Washington or among his department and any other department of this government and Washington to deal with this particular problem? It seems to me there is no point in waiting until the

Supply-Northern Affairs horse is out of the barn before closing the door. If we are going to be faced with a new D.E.W. line situation our government should now be taking steps to ensure that there is no question about our sovereignty in this particular area. I think we all welcome assistance from the United States in terms of continental defence and it is absolutely essential that we receive it, but I do believe it should be under conditions which are acceptable to the mass of the Canadian people.

Mr. Lesage:

To my knowledge, Mr. Chairman, no approach has been made by the United States government to the Canadian government for another defence line to the north of the D.E.W. line.

Mr. Hamilton (York West):

Has there been any discussion of the principle of ownership of the ice cap north of the land area where, according to the indication in this article, we assert one principle and the United States asserts another?

Mr. Lesaga:

We have never subscribed to the sector theory in application to the ice. We are content that our sovereignty exists over all the Arctic islands. There is no doubt about it and there are no difficulties concerning it. Our sovereignty has never been endangered by the existence of the D.E.W. line. We have agreements with the United States and the facts are there to prove we have sovereignty over our northern territory. We have never upheld a general sector theory. To our mind the sea, be it frozen or in its natural liquid state, is the sea; and our sovereignty exists over the lands and over our territorial waters.

Mr. Hamilton (York West):

Do I gather from the minister's answer that if the situation were reversed and it was Russia which intended to make use of this area for a warning line of some kind, we would not be concerned because that does not affect our principle of ownership?

Mr. Lesage:

As far as we are aware, Russia has never claimed water or ice as being in the territory over which it has sovereignty. I have not heard that the United States wants to establish a line on the ice cap north of the islands of Canada because this area is the high sea, be it frozen or in liquid form. I suppose and I certainly hope that my hon. friend believes in the freedom of the high seas.

Mr. Hamilton (York West):

I do not think there is any question about the freedom of the high seas. What I am requesting from the minister is an answer to a simple question. If we do not assert the sector principle which has been referred to in this article,

Supply-Northern Affairs does that mean that we are quite satisfied to have any power occupy the polar ice cap north of our territory?

Mr. Lesage:

The ice cap is in exactly the same situation as the Atlantic ocean; it is the high sea.

Mr. Hamilton (York West):

The minister has not answered the question.

Mr. Lesage:

The hon. member can answer it himself. I have indicated the principles. I do not have to apply them for you.

Mr. Harkness:

I think the minister is evading the question. There is no use saying that the polar ice cap is the high seas because it is not. You cannot sail a ship over it or anything else. As he probably knows, permanent establishments have been erected on the ice cap in the way of landing fields, radar stations and so on. As the minister also probably knows, at the present time a big scramble is going on among half a dozen countries to establish sovereignty over various parts of the Antarctic ice cap.

Mr. Lesage:

There is land there.

Mr. Harkness:

Some of it is land.

Mr. Lesage:

It is a continent.

Mr. Harkness:

Nobody knows.

Mr. Lesage:

That is the difference.

Mr. Harkness:

Nobody knows. The minister says there is land, but nobody knows just how much is land. It is an ice cap; nevertheless nations are attempting to establish sovereignty over parts of that ice cap. As far as this Arctic ice cap is concerned, nobody knows how much of it is water and how much of it is land. I do not think it is good enough for the minister to evade this question by saying that these are the high seas. They are not. This is an ice cap upon which permanent installations have been established and supplied by air transport.

The Deputy Chairman:

Shall the item carry?

Mr. Hamilton (York West):

Is that all the

answer we get?

Mr. Lesage:

I do not know just what the hon. member wants to know. Do hon. members want to know what the ice cap is under international law? Do they want to know what the ice cap north of the Arctic islands is? My answer is very simple. It is the high sea in frozen form. The ordinary laws of the high sea apply to high seas whether they be in liquid or frozen form. That is the limit of my knowledge of international law on this. If my hon. friend knows more about it than I do I hope he will tell us what he knows.