February 14, 1957

SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. Hansell:

It could not be carried if I was on my feet before it was carried. I am not too much concerned about it, but a thing is not carried when someone is on his feet. I am just going to suggest that if the hon. member who preceded me wants the name changed it should be done in the form of an amendment. If he is not going to do that, it is all right. I am not too much concerned about it.

Clause 1 agreed to.

On clause 2-The Arts Defined.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. Hansell:

Clause 2 is an interpretative clause defining the term "the arts". I do not think we have any objection to the interpretation given here, but the purpose of the bill is to encourage the arts, humanities and social sciences. I am wondering why no interpretation is given to th!e other two branches, the humanities and social sciences. So far as I can see, there is more need for an interpretation of the humanities and social sciences than there is any need for an interpretation of what is meant by the arts. I think almost everyone would agree that we know what "the arts" means.

While I am speaking on that, may I remind you, Mr. Chairman, that the other day when we were in committee I had something to say about the social sciences. I think we need to interpret that a little

Canada Council

bit because the term "social sciences" can take in a lot of territory, so much territory that perhaps the council will be embarking on some form of work which is in reality none of its business. I know something about the social science textbooks that are used in some of our schools. I have not been a father trying to care for my children's education without reading some of the social science books which come to my home. I must say that I am not enamoured of some of the things that are taught in social science.

When we were in committee a few days ago I read a paragraph from a book which I have, entitled "Education or Indoctrination", in which something is said with respect to the social science textbook. The paragraph reads:

In 1940 Dr. Raply Robey made an examination of 600 social science textbooks in high schools. He declared, "A substantial portion of the social science textbooks now used in high schools tend to criticize our form of government, and hold in derision or contempt the system of private enterprise . . . There is a notable tendency in the books to play down what has been accomplished in this country and to stress the defects of our democracy."

It is that sort of thing to which I object. However, in this clause we are discussing the interpretation of the arts. May I say, Mr. Speaker, that I think if the council were only concerned with the arts as described in clause 2, we would not have had as much to say as we had. I do not think the attitude that this group took would have been the same. It is to some of the other things that are not interpreted in this clause that we have taken objection in our speeches.

May I ask the Prime Minister why it is that the other two branches of the work of this council, the humanities and social sciences, are not given an interpretation in this bill as the expression "the arts" has been?

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

It was considered that the term "the arts" should be defined so as not to extend it beyond those arts that it was intended should be fostered by the Canada Council. The other expressions, the humanities and social sciences, have a recognized and accepted meaning in the academic world. I notice that in the academic world the term humanities includes such studies as history, literature, foreign languages, philosophy and related subjects; that is the generally accepted meaning that is given to this term in the universities. I think the term "social sciences" is generally taken to mean the study of anthropology, economics, geography, law-not municipal law, but law in its

Canada Council

general, broad application-political science, psychology, sociology and the related subjects.

I would not think that the Canada Council would have any jurisdiction whatever to determine the textbooks that would be used in high schools in connection with the study of the social sciences; that is something that would be outside of their jurisdiction. The purpose would be for the council to encourage the study and development of the arts, humanities and social sciences in their broad aspects, as they affect the enjoyment of life in an organized, civilized society. It was not considered that it would be necessary to describe the humanities or the social sciences, but it was felt that the arts should be defined in a way that would include those things that we in our generation recognize to be the arts. The definition includes the arts of the theatre. Well, the arts of the theatre are the drama, the opera, even the ballet, those things that are provided for the enjoyment of the audiences that attend the theatre; architecture, the arts of the theatre, literature, music, painting, sculpture, the graphic arts, and other similar creative and interpretative activities are mentioned.

There was no attempt made to restrict the objectives, but as the phrase "the arts" is used in describing the objects of the Canada Council, it was felt there should be an indication there that it covered quite a wide field of these interpretative and creative activities that do give so much enjoyment to people generally.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

Ernest George Hansell

Social Credit

Mr. Hansell:

My simple point is this. To my way of thinking the term "the arts" is in much less need of interpretation than are the humanities and social services which have not been interpreted.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

This is an example. We have heard a great deal about the cold war.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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?

An hon. Member:

What is that?

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

I think probably you

would not know. You have been here all the way through and have been asleep.

I suppose there are very few people in Canada or in the United States who have the slightest idea of what are the principles upon which the so-called cold war is based. All we know is-

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

Certainly not on art.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

It will be on science. There is no doubt about it that science is imperative. The Prime Minister mentioned political science. Well, if it is not a political science, then I would be greatly amazed. They just make our people completely sitting ducks.

[Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East).)

They say and do things that make us follow right along and eat out of their hands. Now, all the techniques which go together to constitute the science of cold war certainly constitute a social science. It is new, but we have not seen the last of it.

Here is another phrase called "brainwashing". It is very common and how it is done requires careful study because it is accomplished through a very definite technique and that again is a social science.

I do not know whether or not the Prime Minister mentioned biology as one of the social sciences. Well, I have studied biology and I happened to have the privilege of teaching biology in the high schools of Alberta for a great many years. In the science of biology every single biology text was plentifully supplied with pictures which indoctrinated the students with the idea that evolution is true, and there was never a single word in any of those texts to guide the students so they could see the respects in which the evidence was against evolution. Well, now, anything that will establish in the mind of the growing child that God did not create this world is certainly undermining religion and the undermining of religion is one of the objectives of UNESCO. Anyone who thinks that is not true just does not know; he is an innocent abroad.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. Si. Laurent (Quebec East):

I do not

know that such is the case.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

Well, it is time the Prime Minister found out; there is no doubt about that.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. Si. Laurent (Quebec East):

I shall have to find out otherwise than through accepting the hon. gentleman's word for it.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

Well, the Prime Minister listens to advice far less dependable than the advice he is getting from me now. I will tell him that; there is no question about that. I would not be surprised if I could give him five or six times as good advice about the matter we are talking about as the Prime Minister has ever had at any time in the past. While we are at it, may I just ask the Prime Minister whether he thinks the great church of which he has the honour to be a member will want to have an establishment set up under which the children of Canada will be indoctrinated against God or the creation?

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

I think the hon. gentleman's question is quite ridiculous.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

It is all right for the Prime Minister to rise and make a smart aleck remark like that, but I will tell him that there is nothing ridiculous about it. It is going on now in Canadian schools from coast to

coast and the only schools in which it is not going on, I am proud to say, are the separate schools conducted by the Catholic church. There is no doubt about that. The Prime Minister cannot talk to me about this thing; I have been right through it and have taught in the schools.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Colin Emerson Bennett (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Veterans Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. Bennett:

The hon. member does not know what he is talking about.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

If the hon. member knew one-half as much about what he is saying as I know about what I am saying he would be an ornament to this house instead of the reverse. That is the kind of thing we have to keep in mind. This kind of thing, Mr. Chairman, is in action down in the United States. They have had so much difficulty there that, as the hon. member for Macleod pointed out with documentation the other night, whole states have banned the activities of UNESCO because they were accomplishing just exactly the objectives which I am complaining about at the present time.

Now, here is another little thing, the tendency to make the child think that his father and mother are old dodderers or old fuddy-duddies. They are all wet, so to speak, to use the common expression. Now, that is actually being indoctrinated into schools which are under the influence of UNESCO.

Having said that, I shall reserve what I have to say in addition until a later time.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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Clause agreed to. On Clause 3-Establishment of Council.


PC

John Borden Hamilton

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Hamilton (York West):

Is there anything mandatory in this clause that 19 persons be appointed to this council, or do I understand properly from reading this that it will be possible that only three or four people might be on this council? I see nothing, Mr. Chairman, in later provisions dealing with the quorum and I wonder whether the Prime Minister reads it the same way as I do?

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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LIB

Louis Stephen St-Laurent (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council)

Liberal

Mr. St. Laurent (Quebec East):

Well, I would not be a party to attempting to set up a Canada Council that did not have practically a full complement of members provided by parliament. I would feel that I would be in a very embarrassing position in parliament if after a section like this were adopted there was an attempt to set up a council with anything less than perhaps-well, I would not say what the percentage would be-90 per cent of those. There might be some difficulty about the choice of one member. I would think that originally there should be one member for every one of the 10 provinces in Canada. I do not think it would be proper for the government or for 82715-83

Canada Council

parliament to imply that there was any province in Canada whose culture was not sufficiently important to require that it have representation on the Canada Council. It might be that because of some difficulty with respect to one of the provinces the full complement was not ready and instead of being set up with the 21 members that are provided for it might be set up with 18, 19 or 20 members. If I were still Prime Minister I would not like to have to explain why the full complement was not immediately provided or why there was a vacancy that was allowed to exist in the Canada Council for any length of time.

Topic:   CANADA COUNCIL
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ENCOURAGEMENT OF THE ARTS, HUMANITIES AND SOCIAL SCIENCES
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February 14, 1957