Mr. MacEwan:

Mr. Chairman, I cannot let this opportunity go by without referring to the hon. member for Westmorland, who has just spoken and has twice complimented me on the resolution which I placed on the order paper of this house. It is very fine of him to do so, and in this regard I would say that as far as this and other Atlantic resolutions are concerned, I am sure I can speak for the other members from that area and say that we will certainly go ahead, put them on the order paper and see that they are carried out to the best of our ability. Furthermore, at a meeting of the Atlantic candidates in Moncton we certainly enjoyed the great hospitality of that city, although I do not think my hon. friend had anything to do with that.

However, I would just like to refer to some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Macleod with respect to the coal mining industry. I would point out that in the area which I represent, the constituency of Pictou, a great deal of the economy is bound up in the coal mining industry. I will just briefly describe the history of that industry, which began with the old companies such as the General Mining Company, Acadia Coal Company and the Intercolonial Coal Company. It is easy to appreciate from what has happened in recent years that the coal mining industry has certainly been going down in that area. We have seen the closing down of mines in the town of Stellarton, the closing of the Alla shaft, Albion, MacGregor and also No. 79. There has also been a considerable reduction in the working force of the Intercolonial Coal Mining Company in

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Westville. Many delegations were sent to Halifax, to the provincial government of the time, and to the federal government in Ottawa without any help whatsoever being received.

As far as the town of Westville is concerned, which is an heroic town of some 4,200 people and which might be compared with Springhill in the neighbouring Cumberland county, it has for some years now faced a very bleak existence. The finances of the town are poor, as they have been for the last six or eight years, and this also applies to the town of Stellarton. In Westville there is what is known as the black diamond seam, a seam of coal which contains approximately 15 million tons of the best coal available. In this connection I would suggest that the subventions on coal which have been announced by this government will indeed have the effect desired in helping these mines, and I will certainly press for such a mine to be opened up before too long in order to assist that town.

These subventions announced by the government should, as I say, be of great assistance to the area, but my hon. friend from Macleod has stated that one way this government could help the coal mining industry throughout the country would, of course, be to encourage new industries. In this regard I would point out that these subventions will also help in the expansion of power plants in the province of Nova Scotia. There are, as many hon. members will know, some very active organizations in the maritime provinces, including one known as the Atlantic provinces economic council. This is made up of members from all over the Atlantic provinces under a very energetic president. The last place this organization met was, I believe, in the city of Charlottetown. APEC, as this organization is known, is not limited by political partisanship at all, but includes representatives from business, labour, educational authorities, and the various governments within these provinces. Certainly this organization is establishing a solid front in the maritimes.

I would just like to refer to an article in the Financial Post of September 28th last, as follows:

Maritimers are finding out through their Atlantic provinces economic council or APEC how much they can do by their own efforts to expand business and raise living standards. At a meeting just held in Charlottetown APEC studied trade promotion. Numerous constructive ideas were brought forward.

For example, the four provinces in APEC plan to establish an Atlantic House in London, England, very soon. Through this agency, as the experience of other parts of Canada shows, they might expect to attract immigrants, capital and orders for their goods.

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The Financial Post goes on to say:

In these current APEC reports there is a strong emphasis on local markets which may reflect the maritime sense of isolation. For instance, the Atlantic makers of footwear and apparel held a very successful show of their goods this year-but they held it in Halifax. They plan another for 1958-in Moncton or Saint John.

Why not Montreal or Toronto? It's by selling an exportable surplus outside their own borders, by competing in the Canadian market as a whole, and on overseas and foreign markets that the maritimes will ultimately share to the full a national prosperity.

An "operation bootstrap" of this kind is far better than wringing of hands, appeals to Ottawa or nostalgic longing for good old days.

What has been going on in the provinces of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick is what we might call "operation coaldust" or "operation kilowatt", or whatever you wish, but now the maritime provinces, through APEC, are showing that they are going ahead. I would like to refer briefly to a company which has been set up by the government of Nova Scotia known as Industrial Estates Limited. The purpose of this company is to attract new industry to the province of Nova Scotia, and I was happy to note from the issue of the Halifax Chronicle Herald yesterday that the first estate will be set up between the two towns I have mentioned, namely Stellarton and Westville, comprising 150 acres which have already been purchased. An option has been taken on a further 600 acres; and I believe that Industrial Estates Limited, which has many good and energetic men on its board of directors, will help to ensure a bright future for the province of Nova Scotia and the maritimes generally. I certainly hope that industry will be attracted to my own area.

Finally, I would like to refer the remarks of the hon. member for Macleod this morning to the effect that this government would not be here long if it did not do something. In my opinion this government has done more during this short period for my area and for the maritimes in general than has been done for many, many years. I might say that in the proud constituency which I have the honour to represent the future looks good, and I believe the whole of the maritimes are now looking forward to a prosperity which they have not known heretofore.

Mr. Herridge (Kootenay West):

I would like to say a few words Mr. Chairman, in support of the remarks made this morning by the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway. I must take advantage of this opportunity to bring to the attention of the government and this house the situation with respect to unemployment in my constituency, a constituency which is known for one of the highest rates of income per capita in Canada. I say, Mr. Chairman, that I am very suited

to deal with this question as I am with a number of other questions. As a suffering employer in the lumber industry, as a member of a miner's union and as a peasant farmer I can take a fully objective view of all these questions.

Now, Mr. Chairman, the government has passed some legislation of value, legislation which will be of great assistance to numbers of persons including senior citizens, disabled and blind persons and war veterans. We were glad to see this legislation brought in and we supported it wholeheartedly. However, all this means, Mr. Chairman, is a minor redistribution of the diminishing production of this country. That is all this legislation means at the present time. The government of the day has not yet had to face head on, the major problems which have to be solved. I am not blaming the government for the situation which exists in the country at the present time, or for the situation which may continue to exist for some time to come unless some fundamentally different approach is made to this question.

Mr. Chairman, we believe that this question of unemployment and its related problems will not be solved properly until we have a different approach to our trade policies, some over-all planning, a different type of federal-provincial co-operation and different fiscal policies. We must also have a really national development policy which is the result of co-operation between the federal government and the provinces, and we must have a fiscal policy which permits the use of the national credit to give effect to the national development policy.

We in this group believe that these are some of the things which are necessary before we are going to solve, in the long run, these unemployment problems and the difficulties associated with them. However, we recognize that these things cannot be undertaken overnight and that they are unlikely to be undertaken by the Conservative government with its present philosophy, its present program and its current outlook, composed as it is of some hon. members who are so antiquated in their point of view that they would have made good parish councillors in the reign of George IV.

I want to bring to the attention of the committee and the government the situation in my own constituency, one which is unparalleled in recent years. I have in my hand a copy of the Trail Daily Times of November 23 in which is included the report of the manager of the employment offices for the latest monthly period. This is what he has to say:

Unemployment conditions in Trail and district are comparatively worse now compared to the same

period in 1956, J. T. Wilkinson, local manager of the unemployment insurance commission said today in his monthly review.

"There are now 505 males and 123 females unemployed", said Mr. Wilkinson, "a rise of 70 per cent over last month and a 125 per cent increase over last year. Thirty-eight per cent of the applications for aid were from Castlegar and Grand Forks area with the remaining 62 per cent from Trail.

Now the report goes on to refer to the various industries. I am very well acquainted with my constituency; I have seen it develop from pioneer days. Mr. Wilkinson has this to say with regard to the future:

The next largest industry reporting layoffs is logging and sawmill. This has increased considerably for this reporting period and is at least two months earlier than usual. Many sawmills and logging operations are closing down throughout the entire area with some remaining closed and others working at a reduced rate.

I may mention that the Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company has had to lay off a number of men.

This condition, as reported by some, Is brought about by lack of sales.

Something about which I have very close personal experience. Then the report goes on:

Wholesale and retail trades are reporting business slow with few hirings. We expect some increase with the coming of Christmas but it is anticipated the demand for sales clerks will not be as great this year.

Dealing with forestry, the report says:

Little activity has occurred for this reporting period. The extra crews hired during the summer season have now been laid off.

Of mining, the report says:

No hirings have occurred for this reporting period with little hope of an early recovery expected. We are well supplied with workers for this industry, and an increase of transient miners requesting work has passed through our office.

Of manufacturing:

To date approximately 150 workers have been laid off from Consolidated Mining and Smelting Company Limited. This has caused a sharp rise in our unemployed figures for the present.

Of construction:

A sharp increase of skilled and semi-skilled workers registering for employment has occurred throughout the period, with contracts in our previous reports being completed or nearing completion. No new contracts have been let and it is expected the situation will become worse as present contracts are completed.

Then the report goes on to deal with veterans.

Our special placements files have increased over the month, due to those working at seasonal employment. The majority of applicants registered are of the age group class and employment is limited.

These are the people who sutfer the most, those who are unable to work in the mines, woods and mills. Then Mr. Wilkinson says:

Veteran files for October showed a slight increase over the previous month with the percentage of

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veterans against the total unemployed applicants being favourable with last year.

The women's division also reports increased unemployment, as does the executive and professional division.

Mr. Chairman, this represents a serious state of affairs in a constituency such as the one I have the honour to represent which produces such great wealth. It is one which presents increasing difficulties. The number of transients is increasing rapidly in both Nelson and in Trail, for the same conditions prevail in Nelson as I have mentioned. The city of Trail got all the agencies together and representatives from the organizations met, as a result of which the city has established a central agency for transients to be located in the city hall adjacent to the clothing centre and to be operated jointly by the Trail relief organization and the Trail welfare society. The decision to set up a central agency was taken at a meeting of representatives of interested organizations. Under the chairmanship of the city council's welfare chairman, Alderman F. E. DeVito, as reported in the Trail Daily Times, the talks were one in a series held to discuss the problem of growing numbers of unemployed transients passing through Trail.

Men out of work in other parts of British Columbia and, possibly, a good number of farmers who have ceased their farming operations on the prairies, come to Trail because it is known as a place where one can usually obtain employment. In discussing this question at the Trail town meeting Alderman Alex Brokenshire had this to say:

Things are rough and may get even rougher.

The whole tenor of this meeting was that the city was facing a situation with regard to transients which was only a reflection of the growing unemployment in other areas.

Mr. Chairman, as I said before, we believe we have to take a more fundamental approach if we are to correct this situation. Like the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway and others in this group I believe that something more could be done at this time to assist people to obtain employment. It is very easy to sit in this house, living a reasonably comfortable life, and fail to realize what unemployment means to the average head of a family and to the average mother of a family if it continues for any length of time, and I think we in this house should do everything possible regardless of party to promote a continual flow of ideas-and I am very glad to see the Minister of Labour nodding agreement-and proposals which will relieve the situation.

First, we believe that there should be in these circumstances not the formal and long

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distance projects that, perhaps, we have come to expect from provincial conferences. We believe the federal government should say to the provinces: "Come to Ottawa; here is an immediate situation and we want your cooperation. Let us sit round the table and do something to meet it, at least during the winter months, or the few months ahead."

There are things which can be done if we use our intelligence. It is not enough to sit back and assume that large numbers of people must go on unemployment insurance or unemployment assistance and that others must wander along the streets with no source of income except a handout at a soup kitchen. That is not good enough, Mr. Chairman, in Canada at this time, bearing in mind the production of which Canada is capable. There are things that can be done. As I have said, I have had a most interesting life experience including the time I have spent in this house in the last 12 years. I have had something to do with the construction of highways and bridges and piers and I am trying to do something today toward the production of the Conservative party, though how successful I will be in that work I do not know.

I think this government could ensure that there is a certain amount of work continued on the trans-Canada highway as a result of co-operation with the provinces, particularly a province such as British Columbia where you can carry on heavy rock cuts all winter long and construct certain types of rock fills and high level bridges and things of that sort under winter conditions. In addition to that there is a lot of material required for this construction which normally will be continued in the spring, in the way of lumber, steel and things of that nature. A little planning and co-operation would make it possible to keep some of the sawmills going and would assist the steel industry in operating, if only we would look ahead and place some of these orders for the future. In addition to that I believe there is an opportunity to promote the necessary building on the prairies.

If in the period of the hungry thirties when the former Conservative government was in power-I will admit it was not then called the Progressive Conservative party- we had used our national credit to build highways, houses, public utilities and things of that sort we could have given the people employment at reasonable wages and at the same time accomplished the building of the necessary projects at at least one-quarter of the price. If we had had sufficient faith in our country this could have been done.

I suggest some co-operation is necessary between the governments on a very sound

basis. I am all for getting people to work in order to earn their money rather than having them get it without work and I am sure a great majority of Canadians share that view. We could do something to improve the situation in the lumber industry by using the national credit to provide for the necessary buildings, home improvements and long-term loans for that purpose, and the construction of the granaries that are required to house the millions of bushels of grain which in some cases have to remain on the ground outdoors. These are things we can do and I have mentioned only a few but instead we sit around and mope and fail to take action.

In the first place this is not a party question. We should all be willing to co-operate for the sake of the people we are here to represent. In the second place we should use our intelligence and explore every avenue for the development of programs to create this necessary employment. That is something that could be done immediately. It has little to do with the political philosophy of any party in this house. Rather it is simply a reflection of ordinary Canadian common sense.

There is one thing we could do that would be of great assistance to British Columbia and it was mentioned by the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway; that is, to stop being stupid and recognize the government of China. We sent a trade mission in by way of the back door and although we do not recognize it we say we would like to do business with it. Let us recognize the government of China but do not recognize the form of government. Let us do something for the lumber, fish, mining and fruit industries in British Columbia and other parts of Canada.

Mr. Christian:

Mr. Chairman, I would like first to agree with the hon. member for Kootenay West in relation to his attitude in respect of the matter of unemployment. I, too, feel that this is a problem which should be solved by all of us on a non-party basis. The hon. member for Kootenay West and I hail from the province of British Columbia which consists largely of mountains and valleys. As a result of this in many places in that province we suffer considerably from the problem of river erosion particularly during the heavy runoff of river waters in the spring of each year when a large amount of farmers' land disappears into the rivers causing the farmers a considerable loss. In my particular area there are two rivers, the Similkameen and the Kettle, which carry large quantities of water and do considerable damage especially in the spring of the year.

The farmers are extremely worried about losing so much of their fertile land.

I have in my hand a letter in the form of a resolution from the British Columbia farmers' institutes of Grand Forks, British Columbia, which reads as follows:

Whereas erosion by rivers and streams continues to take a heavy toll each year of our best agricultural land, and whereas this loss is irreparable and is a net loss to the entire country, and whereas the British Columbia government has instituted a policy of investigation, survey and corrective measures whereby they would pay a maximum of 50 per cent of the cost of the required work, and whereas farmers and land owners whose land is being damaged cannot afford to pay more than a small fraction of the expense involved, therefore be it resolved that pressure be brought to bear immediately on the dominion government to work with the provincial authorities and assume up to 50 per cent of the cost involved in preventing further damage through erosion by said rivers and streams.

A number of months ago I personally obtained two petitions from farmers in the area who are of the opinion that the dominion and provincial governments should work out some equitable scheme for sharing the costs in order to prevent further damage by rivers.

One hon. gentleman who preceded the hon. member for Kootenay West mentioned that more was done in his constituency by the Conservative government than had been done by any other government but as far as my own constituency of Okanagan Boundary is concerned I am not in a position to say that because to my knowledge at the present time there is no works program or any substantial benefit that has been extended to that area.

Mr. Maclnnis:

I think you will find that he made reference to the maritimes and not to his own constituency.

Mr. Christian:

Well, thank you very much; that may be the case. In any event I do not feel that preference should be shown to any particular constituency whatsoever. After all, we live in Canada and the work should be proportioned throughout the whole country as equitably as possible.

I wish to bring to the attention of the committee the matter of the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act. I personally feel the act was not properly named and that it should be called the Canadian farm rehabilitation act and its provisions applied and extended throughout the entire nation. I recently examined section 4 of the act which reads:

The advisory committees shall consider and advise the minister as to the best methods to be adopted to secure the rehabilitation of the drought and soil drifting areas in the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta, and to develop and promote within these areas systems of farm practice, tree culture, water supply, land utilization and land settlement that will afford greater economic security, and to make such representations thereon to the minister as the advisory committees may deem expedient.

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I fail to see why an act of such great importance should be limited in its application to three provinces. I observed not so long ago that the federal government intends to endeavour to assist the British Columbia fruit lands irrigation projects to the extent of some $200,000. As I understand it, this amount has already been earmarked by the federal government to assist this project which is located near the city of Kamloops in the province of British Columbia. The entire cost of the project will be $600,000. The provincial government is to assume one-third of the cost, or $200,000, and the balance is to be assumed by the local residents and I believe there has been a bond issue in that area. Veterans are affected by this project and the money contributed by the federal government is authorized pursuant to the provisions of the Veterans' Land Act. I am all in favour of helping the veterans in so far as this project is concerned.

I should also like to mention certain other projects throughout my own province of British Columbia. There are a number of irrigation districts in the province of British Columbia which are having a difficult time with their financing. Quite a number of them have barely enough money to meet the current expenses of the irrigation district, and when it comes to a question of various capital renewals, in so far as irrigation systems are concerned, they just have not the money to do it and they are in a very serious state. In some of these particular irrigation districts there are veterans who are actually on those properties. I personally do not think you can justify the expenditure of $200,000 by the federal government to help veterans-I am in favour of helping them- and yet not extend the same relief and benefit to other irrigation districts throughout the country. I personally know of a number of them in British Columbia. No doubt there is a large number of others throughout the Dominion of Canada, but I believe we should treat all those irrigation districts in the same way for the benefit of all Canadians.

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I do not wish to interrupt my hon. friend's speech but the practice has not been in the past for speeches, which would normally be made on estimates, to be made on motions for interim supply. These motions in times past, as hon. members opposite will recall, have been dispatched very quickly. The whole purpose of any minister of finance in giving to the house the assurance that all rights of members of the house to discuss any item on the estimates will be preserved is just to assure to hon. members that they will have an opportunity later in the session, when the estimates of the departments are

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before the committee of supply, to make whatever speeches are relevant and pertinent to the estimates of the department. But, Mr. Chairman, what we are having here today is a discussion of estimates or the equivalent of a debate on a motion to resolve the house into committee of supply. This is a far departure from the practice of the house on motions for interim supply. It is utterly profitless for a minister of finance to give hon. members assurances that their rights to discuss any matter that is pertinent to any items of the estimates shall be preserved if we are to have a debate on these matters today and then a debate on the same matters when the estimates are before the house in committee of supply.

Now, we have had complaints today, a good many of them, about delay of items on the order paper. Mr. Chairman, with all respect, we are just going to be that much more delayed in reaching those items on the order paper, many important items, many pressing items, if we are to have two debates, one on the motion for interim supply and then again the same thing on the estimates of the various departments. I would urge, Mr. Chairman, that the time-honoured practice of the house should be observed on motions for interim supply.

I think I can recall only one occasion prior to this session where there was anything like a discussion on a motion for interim supply. Ministers of finance who have preceded me in every case have pressed and insisted, because of the preservation of the rights of members to bring their matters up on the estimates of the various departments, that there should not be extended debate on a motion for interim supply; nor should a wide variety of matters be introduced under the heading of grievance, or anything of that kind. Such a debate as is now proceeding, it seems to me with great respect, is not at all proper on a motion for interim supply.

Mr. Quelch:

On the point of order, when the leader of this group spoke he pointed out that we were quite prepared to co-operate and let this motion go through with very little debate. But what has happened? Speaker after speaker from different parties has risen in his place and discussed the question of unemployment. If the minister considered it necessary to object, why did he not object when one member from his own party was speaking at some length on this particular question? This is only our second speaker. When the question of unemployment is discussed by member after member have we to sit in this corner and say nothing? If the minister wants to object, let him object at the proper time and not wait until

a member from this group rises for the first time in the debate. He should have raised the objection right at the very start when the debate on unemployment started and when a member from his own party spoke on it at some length.

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Chairman, I suppose it is quite obvious to most hon. members that when in a situation like that arising this morning, when we were told by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre, that several of his members wished to speak but briefly, any minister who is offering a motion for interim supply sits back and says, it may be they will be brief but, as happened this afternoon, we have just gone on with the speeches growing longer and longer. It is quite apparent, I am sure, to the hon. member for Acadia, being the reasonable man that he is, that we are now hearing a speech on irrigation. We have been everywhere today. We have had speeches on the recognition of the Chinese communist government and we have had some speeches on unemployment. We have departed far from the simple indication that we had from the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre when he spoke very briefly this morning.

What is the situation? I have given to the hon. member who has been speaking the assurance that he will have full opportunity to make his speech on irrigation on the proper item in the estimates of the department that is concerned; but, Mr. Chairman, we are just going to have duplication of debate and hon. members will just be faced with the situation of which they are complaining, namely that they cannot reach some later item on the order paper. We will not be able to begin the discussion of the later item unless we have some regard for the practice and the true purpose of discussion in regard to motions for interim supply.

Mr. Christian:

I will be glad to co-operate in this respect, as I always wish to do. However, I would say this. As I sat here I could see that some members were speaking about coal and others were speaking about unemployment, and I followed the practice of the day. I think I have a reasonable attitude, Mr. Chairman. However, I will cut my remarks as short as possible. The only point I was trying to make was that I felt that as between irrigation projects in Canada there should be no such thing as discrimination. There is a great need for the dominion and provincial governments to co-operate and help some of the unfortunate irrigation districts, particularly in the province of British Columbia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Mclvor:

Mr. Chairman, since the estimates of the Postmaster General will not be discussed I have a burning question. I will take only about three minutes. We have had a daily mail-

Mr. Fleming:

May I tell my hon. friend that there are a couple of items of further supplementary estimates of the Post Office Department that have yet to come before the committee of supply.

Mr. Mclvor:

I could have been through by this time.

(Translation);

Mr. Boulanger:

Mr. Chairman, mindful of what the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fleming) has said I will try to be as brief as possible. However I do wish to offer some remarks on the situation of the textile industry in this country, more particularly in my constituency, which includes the town of Drummond-ville where about 80 per cent of the people depend upon that particular industry for their living.

The government is well aware of the importance of this industry in the nation's economy. According to a report of the Primary Textile Institute 80,000 people are employed in this industry which ranks ahead of the iron and steel industry which employs

29.000 people and the pulp and paper industry which employs 62,000.

Besides the fact that its capital is 84 per cent Canadian, the textile industry also pays the highest wages in this country, averaging $1.20 an hour whereas in 1954, in Great Britain, the average hourly wage was 44 cents, as against 15 cents in Japan and 12 cents in India. The industry is further handicapped by competition resulting from British preferential tariffs.

At the present time, the Canadian textile industry supplies approximately 46 percent of the needs of the domestic market whereas last year the corresponding figure was 56 per cent. This 10 per cent decrease represents work which could have been carried out by our Canadian workers and, consequently, explains the present unemployment.

Comparing the present figures to last year's we find that the textile industry now employs

3.000 fewer people than it did then, which means 3,000 more unemployed. If we look at the situation in the Dominion Textile plant in Drummondville, we find that on November 2, 1957 there were 210 employees less than on November 3, 1956, a figure which must be considered in the light of the fact that that industry employs 1,000 people. There is unemployment therefore in Drummondville, as in every other community with

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a textile industry. That is why I felt that I should call the government's attention, this afternoon, to what, in my estimation, is a rather serious situation.

Two suggestions have been made in this connection by the Canadian association of textile manufacturers. To begin with there should obviously be a change in the definition of the word "dumping" which favours export of American products to Canada below cost price.

The Templon Spinning Mills Company, of Drummondville, sent a letter recently to the Minister of National Revenue (Mr. Nowlan). Here is one paragraph from that letter:

(Text):

We suggest that an investigation of the declared price of American yarns being imported into this country be started. Templon Spinning Mills (Canada) Limited are prepared to provide your department with American orlon prices now in force in the United States, and we are sure that the rest of the Canadian synthetic spinners will be glad to supply similar information from their sources.

(Translation):

This clearly shows that the government must take action to correct the situation. If I felt justified in taking part in the debate this afternoon it is because I feel the matter to be urgent. I would have liked to speak at greater length but I will close now by asking the government to act as soon as possible.

(Text):

Mr. Barnett:

Had it not been for the recent remarks of the Minister of Finance I might have been disposed to remain silent and not utter the thoughts that crossed my mind this morning when he was giving us this usual solemn assurance about reserving the right to the committee to full discussion of the estimates.

Mr. Fleming:

Yes, on the estimates.

Mr. Barnett:

However, having listened to his recent remarks I must remind him that at least two of his colleagues, namely the Prime Minister and the house leader, have been making very strong suggestions to us that they expected us to have completely dealt with the estimates prior to the Christmas recess. They have also been taking some steps to foreshorten the normal opportunities in this house to discuss some of the problems of the Canadian people under motions for supply. I feel, therefore, that perhaps it is not inappropriate that we should seize this occasion to raise such matters as have been raised by hon. members like the hon. member for Vancouver-Kingsway. Having said that, I assure the Minister of Finance I am going to express what I have to say as briefly as possible.

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My colleague, the hon. member for Kootenay West, attempted to offer some constructive suggestion as to how the immediate unemployment situation that has developed in some areas of the country be handled. I have a matter which I might normally have raised as a matter of departmental policy on the estimates of the Department of Fisheries, but in view of the urgency of the unemployment situation as described by my colleague the member for Vancouver-Kings-way I feel it can very appropriately be related to the remarks that were made by him, by the hon. member for Kootenay West and others. On two recent occasions I have made some mention in the house of the fact that on Vancouver island and in other parts of British Columbia there are more than the usual number of unemployed loggers as well as a large number of qualified construction workers who are now without jobs and seeking work. For that reason I should like to mention this as part of the national development policy about which the party to which the Minister of Finance belongs have been having quite a bit to say.

The Minister of Finance may or may not know that along the coastal area of British Columbia we have several hundred streams which are used by our Pacific salmon for spawning purposes. Some of these streams are in the more rugged and undeveloped parts of the Pacific coast. One of the facts that has often been brought out in reports by the federal Department of Fisheries is that, as a result of these streams being in undeveloped areas, nature continues to take its course so far as the facilities of the salmon for spawning are concerned. 1 have discussed on former estimates of the Department of Fisheries the reports that have been made that flash floods cause a loss of a good deal of the potential future salmon runs. In view of the unemployment situation amongst loggers and construction workers, now would be a very good time to undertake on a much larger scale than has heretofore been undertaken the development and improvement of our salmon spawning streams along the Pacific coast. This is the type of work for which the unemployed loggers and unemployed construction workers would be particularly suited. Much of this work could be done at low levels where there would not be any great difficulty in carrying on work during the winter, even though it might not be the most pleasant time of the year to do it.

The whole question of carrying on a development program which would have the effect of decreasing the damage caused salmon streams as a result of logging activity

when it is going at full blast is something that could be considered in a program of this kind.

As I said to the minister, Mr. Chairman, I intend to be as brief as I can in stating this point. But I do feel, in view of the unemployment situation which has been brought to the attention of the government and which probably will be brought to their attention to an increasing extent as the days go by unless something is done, that this is a practical sort of suggestion which could very well be carried out at this time. It is not the sort of thing which, as the hon. member for Kootenay West said, need divide us on partisan political lines but something which, as far as I can see, is a genuine suggestion to meet the immediate situation and provide employment opportunities to some of the people of British Columbia who at the present time have not got those opportunities.

Mr. McMillan:

Mr. Chairman, I notified the Minister of Finance that I wanted to discuss the earlier vesting of pension rights. It would take me about ten minutes to do so but I am willing to co-operate with his request in order that the work of the house may progress. I think I can deal with the matter later under his estimates.

Mr. Irwin:

Mr. Chairman, I fully appreciate the attitude of the Minister of Finance. Being here under the conditions I am and having regard to the position I occupied previous to coming here I suppose I should be one of the last to break either the rules of the house or its precedents. I do not intend to do that. So far as interim supply is concerned, I am quite willing to let the minister go ahead. Let us get on with the job, but there is one thing I should like to point out to him. I must protest the action he takes when he brings an interim supply motion before the house and does not give all members a list of what he proposes to do. He may say, of course, that he has not had time to prepare a list but I noted that he provided one for the leaders of each group and I suppose for each member of the cabinet. If that is possible, I suggest to him it is equally possible to mimeograph it and let all members have it.

After all we are not mind readers and when it comes to relating one-twelfth of an item that is in the blue book, plus the supplementary estimates, I put it to him that it requires quite a feat of mental acrobatics in order to be able to relate the one to the other. When he gets down into cents and tells us that one amount is one-twelfth of another amount of money it would be helpful if we could compare the two and make sure he is correct because, after all, we are policemen

so far as the Minister of Finance is concerned and we want to carry out our duties. I suggest to him that when he brings interim supply before the house in the future, as he probably will do, that he take steps to have all members provided with a list of the things that he proposes to do so that we will at least know what we are talking about.

(Translation):

Mr. Begin:

Mr. Chairman, I feel I should take this opportunity provided by the motion for interim supply, representing one-twelfth of the total estimates of those departments which have not as yet been adopted, to bring to the attention of the house the acute unemployment situation in the city of Quebec and, more particularly, in the constituency of Quebec West.

If unemployment is now on the increase, it is due primarily to the Canadian people's lack of confidence in the present government. Another cause is the fact that the government has no definite policy but prefers to drift along and to attempt to take advantage of opportunities most likely to strike the voters' fancy.

(Text):

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Chairman, again I must rise and appeal to my hon. friend and to the house. My hon. friend has indicated he is going to make a speech relating to a matter that can properly be raised on the estimates. Again I respectfully remind him that I have given to the house the assurance that these estimates will be open for discussion. The ministers of the various departments will be before the committee of supply with their estimates throughout the session and any speech that is relevant to any item of the estimates can be made. But, Mr. Speaker, we are just going to have duplication of debate if we are going to go on as we are today-just duplication.

(Translation):