January 10, 1958

LIB

James Allen (Jim) Byrne

Liberal

Mr. Byrne:

I could build my armouries with that.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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LIB

John Whitney Pickersgill

Liberal

Mr. Pickersgill:

I wonder if the hon. minister could tell us if this represents waste and extravagance discovered by the Minister of Finance?

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

It represents an over-estimation which for the reason I explained earlier, often happens and which we have frequently criticized in the past.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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Amendment agreed to. Item as amended agreed to. 405. Government's contribution to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police pension account, $986,710.


CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Castleden:

I would like to ask a question under this item. I see that it is a statutory item with regard to pensions but while we are dealing with the pensions paid to the R.C.M.P., may I say a number of these men are endeavouring to live on a very low pension. Would the minister indicate if he could raise the pension of mounted police who were retired 25 years ago or what an ordinary constable or sergeant would receive as a pension if he retired say in the year 1935? Has there been any increase in that pension and is it possible to increase it by an item here, or I suppose it would require an amendment to the act?

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Ernest James Broome

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Broome:

I would also like to ask a

question with regard to this item. The history of the wage paid to the R.C.M.P. is that it has stayed in a static position for a good many years, to the point that a staff corporal retiring in say 1947 would have had about $2,000, or a little over, in pay and allowances while in 1957 the same staff corporal would have had a total overall pay of $4,800.

Since the pension is computed on the annual wages, the man retiring in 1957 would retire with more than double the pension of the man retiring in 1947. The whole point is that the previous government lagged behind the rising cost of living in adjusting the salaries to the point where they had to increase salaries something like 150 per cent in 10 years. Now that has penalized the man who retired prior to the extremely large increases in annual salaries and it is my belief that something should be done to bring up the pension of the man who retired when salaries were at an extremely low level.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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LIB

Daniel (Dan) McIvor

Liberal

Mr. Mclvor:

I want to say a word on this too, because when I had my resolution before the house everybody supported it. It is a well known fact that no matter what government it is, if it does not increase these pensions to retired civil servants it is not living up to the promises that it would provide an equal amount to what they had before. The mounted police have never been paid big salaries and we do not want our retired civil servants, who are part of the great family of the government of Canada, living in poverty. I am sure the Minister of Justice will rise to the occasion.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I think there are one or two questions that should be answered at this point.

The present scale of pensions is governed by part V of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act which applies to members of the force engaged since March 1, 1949 and to those members who were engaged prior to that date and who elected to become contributors. The pension is based on one-fiftieth of the average pay and allowances received during the last six years for each year of service. One-half of the pension is payable to the widow. The maximum service is 35 years.

There are still in force a number of pensions under part III of the act, which I do not think I need to detail at this time. Under this part of the act there are some anomalies still outstanding which require adjustment. They apply particularly to the position of those who served in the armed forces and have been re-engaged in the R.C.M.P.

I may say we have the act under consideration at the moment, and it is hoped to take

Supply-Justice

care of most of these questions which have been raised in this case and which are outstanding in the proposed revision.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Caslleden:

That does not give me very much in the way of information on the amount that say a constable who retired in 1935 would receive. The pay and allowances at that time were very low. The maximum which a retired mounted policeman could receive would be 70 per cent of what he was receiving over the last six years of service. The man with 25 years service would only be receiving one-half of that amount. I wonder if the minister could provide me with some actual figures as to what such pay and allowances would be.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

I would have to give the current pay and allowances to establish that. If a man served for 35 years, as my hon. friend says, he would then get 70 per cent.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Caslleden:

That is right and 25 years would be half.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

He would get one-half of his pay on retirement.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Caslleden:

Yes; could you tell me what the pay was in 1935, say for a constable or sergeant?

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

You see it is based on the average pay and allowances received during the last six years of service.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Caslleden:

Yes, that is right, but a man who retired in 1935 would be getting, after 25 years service, exactly half of what his average pay was from 1929 to 1935.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

If he retired in 1935 he would, under the present pension provisions, come under the old part III.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Caslleden:

That is correct.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

In which I have said there are some anomalies which require adjustment. I could give some examples and I think my hon. friend will agree that I leave out the names.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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CCF

George Hugh Castleden

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Caslleden:

Yes.

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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PC

Edmund Davie Fulton (Minister of Citizenship and Immigration; Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Fulton:

A special constable who had 20 years of service and who retired on December 1, 1937, receives a pension of $432 a year. A corporal with 20 years of service who retired on May 17, 1929 receives a pension of $511.50 a year; a staff sergeant with 20 years of service who retired on August 1, 1928 receives a pension of $620.50 a year; an inspector with 30 years of service who retired on January 1, 1935 receives $1,836 a year. Those are all samples of the rates that are applicable under part III of the act.

Supply-Justice

Topic:   INTEREST ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO ESTABLISH MINIMUM RATE
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January 10, 1958