Mr. Kirk:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As usual I will bow to your ruling. I will say to you, if I may, and to the Minister of Finance that what I was trying to show was that in the past imaginative proposals have been put forward by previous Liberal governments, and I am trying to show that what we need in the maritime provinces is such policies rather than what I called a moment ago deficiency payments.

With that in mind I think there are several steps that could be taken which would be of assistance to carry out the purposes of the bill as outlined by the Minister of Finance. He said it is to authorize the payment of certain grants to the Atlantic provinces. In the course of his speech he spoke of the great

Dominion-Provincial Relations good it would do the Atlantic provinces, and he referred to the present unemployment situation.

I do not intend to go into details about the unemployment situation, particularly after the comments which were made this morning, but I would hope that some action would be taken or some policy developed which would relieve the present unemployment situation, improve the employment situation and bring about a higher per capita income to the people of the province rather than a higher income to the government of the province directly from the federal government.

I think one of the things that might and could be done by this government in these proposals would be to bring us up to date with respect to a survey of the natural resources of the Atlantic provinces, so we could make speedier use of our natural wealth and thereby raise the standard of prosperity in that part of Canada, and at the same time raise the income of the individual citizens. Another move we might make which would be of great assistance would be the development of an Atlantic provinces capital assistance fund for the purpose of financing those large projects which are essential for sound industrial development.

Mr. Fleming:

I am sorry to interrupt my hon. friend, but surely this is not the proper time to debate other measures that might be of assistance to the maritime or Atlantic area. This surely is a debate on the second reading of this particular bill.

Mr. Pickersgill:

If I might do so I should like to say just a word on the point of order, Mr. Speaker. Surely the minister has indicated, and it is indicated in the bill, that the purpose of this bill is to pay, as my hon. friend has put it, deficiency payments to the Atlantic provinces because the average income of those people is below the average income in the other parts of Canada. Surely we are not to be limited so strictly in debate here that an hon. member cannot rise in his place and say that, desirable though these deficiencies payments are, it would be more desirable still to bring these incomes up so that such payments were not necessary. That surely is addressing oneself directly to the principle of the bill, and I submit that my friend the hon. member for Shelburne-Yar-mouth-Clare is completely in order.

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

On

the same point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I say that I am bound to support the position taken by my friend the hon. member for Shelburne-Yarmouth-Clare. Otherwise almost the whole speech I made this morning was

Dominion-Provincial Relations out of order. I am grateful to the Minister of Finance that he did not raise the point then.

I would point out that in opening the conference that produced the legislation or as a result of which we have the legislation that is now before us, the Prime Minister said that the purpose of that conference was to take steps to assure the ability and capacity of federal and provincial governments to discharge their respective functions. Surely involved in the whole question of these federal-provincial fiscal arrangements is the question as to what is their purpose. The Prime Minister went into unemployment, health insurance and these other matters. Surely we are entitled to express our views as to the means that are necessary to carry out the intent of a federal-provincial approach to the economic problems of this country.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

Order. As everyone realizes, of course, this bill covers the relation between the provinces and the dominion with reference to revenues. Hon. members will realize that we cannot allow them to start going into unemployment and other fields, as happened this morning. I see no reason why those fields cannot be mentioned. However, I do not think they should be gone into as far as debate is concerned, so there would be a great deal of discussion on the matter. They might be mentioned in passing.

Mr. Pickersgill:

First they gag the provinces and then they gag the House of Commons.

Mr. Fleming:

The Speaker is in charge here, not Bonavista-Twillingate.

Mr. Bell (Carleton):

He is too ridiculous to pay any attention to.

Mr. Kirk:

I have followed this debate

very carefully and have been in the house practically all the time since the resolution was first introduced. I have listened rather carefully to the discussions that have taken place and the points of view that have been brought forward, and in practically every case I felt that they met very carefully and accurately the words of the Minister of Finance when, in introducing the resolution, he said the government attaches very great importance to the measure for it looks upon it as one that will bring aid to the provinces and municipalities in this country and will be effective also in meeting the problem of unemployment. It was because of his original comments that I felt, sir, I would be in order in mentioning these matters but not debating them at length. I am trying to show that there would be even greater benefits to the

Atlantic provinces if further action were taken along the lines I have suggested.

I suggest that it would be of great help to us in the Atlantic provinces if assistance were given to the new British Caribbean federation and if long range plans were developed so that we could expand trade with that area. So far as my own province is concerned, in fact along the whole seacoast of the Atlantic provinces, we had our greatest development and economic activity in the days when we were trading by water with other seacoast areas.

Another thing I believe would be of even more help would be assistance in the establishment of trunk highways so that we in the Atlantic provinces could bring our products not only to the provinces of central Canada but to the thickly populated area of the United States, particularly the New England states. I believe further thought should have been given to the matter before the bill was introduced, with a view to following other methods to assist transportation within the Atlantic provinces and improve our facilities through the building of trunk highways, the construction of a causeway to Prince Edward Island, and extension of coastal services in the newest province of Newfoundland.

The study originally suggested some months ago and started prior to last June with respect to the effect of the Maritime Freight Rates Act should be continued and it should be decided whether or not the change from 20 to 30 per cent, that is the 50 per cent increase in the preference, which was given last spring, is adequate at the present moment. While that is being done, of course, there should be provision made for a continuing study of this particular problem. So far as the coal mines are concerned, as a rule my confrere the hon. member for Inverness-Richmond usually speaks in the house on that subject, as it is one in which he is very well versed and with respect to which he is most qualified to speak. But I should like to say that I believe further assistance should be extended. There should be some sign of imagination on the part of the government, some program of scientific and industrial research as to the possibilities of the use of coal and other natural resources as another means of expanding employment and increasing the per capita income of the maritime provinces.

In doing that I feel that a good deal of thought should have been given and must be given to the production and marketing of coal. If necessary there should be greater and more flexible use of subventions, not only with respect to the use of coal within the maritime provinces but also in central Canada.

One of our biggest problems in the mari-times, particularly in the province of Nova Scotia, has to do with farm or rural credit. Only a few months ago the Hawkins commission in the province of Nova Scotia made very definite recommendations.

Mr. Fleming:

Mr. Speaker, I must rise again. My hon. friend is talking about farm credit. He has been talking about coal and subventions. Coal subventions and thermal development are two matters that were discussed in earlier debates. Action was taken on them by the house, and they are concluded. Surely this is far removed from matters germane to the debate on second reading of this particular measure.

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

I do not

want to remind the hon. member again. I said before that he could mention these things but not enter into a debate on them. After all, we are on second reading of the bill and the principle of the bill is supposed to be discussed at this time. I hope the hon. member will not enter into a debate on every subject he brings up.

Mr. Kirk:

I thank you again for your ruling, not only for your ruling but the very kind way in which you made it. I only had one other main topic that I wished to mention, but in deference to your ruling I shall, of course, not do so. However, I am wondering whether one of the reasons I may have gone as far afield as I have on second reading is the fact that for the last few weeks I have done quite a bit of reading of speeches made by the Minister of Finance when he sat on this side of the house.

May I close by saying that we in the Atlantic provinces quite frankly appreciate this move and quite frankly say that we think it is a step in the right direction. We think it will be of help. We realize that so far as the $25 million is concerned, of which $7| million will go to my own province of Nova Scotia, it is for a period of four years and therefore is an interim deficiency payment. Nevertheless we believe it is a move in the right direction and will increase the incomes of the governments of each of the four provinces. It will enable them to carry on certain projects which they have started and others which they feel they must start.

Having said that, however, I must say in all fairness that when the announcement was made the premier of my own province, Premier Stanfield, as reported in the press only a day or two ago, said that while this measure would help it was not nearly enough, and would not provide for doing nearly as much as they had hoped would be done for

Dominion-Provincial Relations the benefit of Nova Scotia. Without mentioning again any of the specific items I mentioned earlier I say that much as this will be of help, if the government would take bolder and more imaginative action they would assist not only the Atlantic provinces but all the provinces of Canada. I do not mean by increasing substantially and directly the incomes of the provincial governments, but by taking such action as would increase the per capita income of the individuals in each of the provinces, and thus in turn improving the income not only of the provinces but of the federal government.

Mr. Colin Cameron (Nanaimo):

Mr. Speaker, I do not propose to spend too much time on the minister's arithmetic, as other members have done-

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

He

did not do so either.

Mr. Cameron:

-because, to be quite frank, I have a fellow feeling for the minister. I recognize him now as a rival to myself as champion in the field of faulty arithmetic. I always thought I was in a class by myself when it came to the ability to add up columns of figures and get two or three wrong answers. It was an ability I displayed during my school days, and I sometimes wondered if I did not shorten the life of one of my unfortunate teachers when he would be confronted with the wrong answer which I had achieved after several pages of careful but incorrect calculation. But what really sent him around the bend was when I came up with the right answer as the accidental result of a number of mistakes cancelling each other out.

The other day, when I heard the minister modestly taking pride in the fact that in spite of his somewhat unorthodox methods he had arrived at within $3,000 of the correct answer, I could almost see the ghost of that old teacher quivering with fury over me and muttering, "double distilled essence of stupidity". That is a phrase that has been graven on my heart and has caused me ever since to view my arithmetic with a very dubious eye, and always to check it with someone more competent than myself. This is a course I would commend to the minister.

As a British Columbian, Mr. Speaker, I was seriously perturbed when I tried to picture what was going to happen to the unfortunate premier of my province who, we are given to understand, is suffering anyway from a case of natural blind staggers, when he found that Santa Claus was holding before him a $5.5 million gift and then thrusting it back in the bag and producing one at half the price. He must almost have had a heart attack over that change in the minister's attitude. I am

Dominion-Provincial Relations not suggesting for a moment that this move on the part of the government can be categorized as a mere vote-catching measure. I would suggest, however, that I doubt if Mr. Bennett is going to vote Conservative this time. After all, this measure is not going to affect the lives of more than a few Canadian people, in fact only the 10 provincial premiers. There are only 10 votes involved, so I doubt that that is its purpose.

When the minister introduced this measure this morning it was referred to as the Federal-Provincial Tax-Sharing Arrangements Act; or has the name now been changed, because I noticed that he mentioned the dominion- provincial tax-sharing arrangement act? However, the minister left no doubt in our minds that the rose, by whatever name it is going to be called in the future, should smell very sweet in the nostrils of the Canadian people. He told us it was a very important measure. He suggested it was important because it would enable the provinces, for one thing, to cope with the problem of unemployment.

I was very pleased to find that the minister had, for the time being, laid aside his rose-coloured glasses and had actually been able to see that there was an unemployment problem existing. I cannot forbear pointing out, Mr. Speaker, that surely if what he has been urging on us this morning is true, then his mention of unemployment on the floor of this parliament will increase the problem this measure is supposed to help. I am glad he recognized it, however, and took off his rose-coloured glasses.

I think we have to regard this measure as somewhat in the form of an instalment of a serial budget. There are advantages in this rather peculiar way of presenting a budget in instalments. After all, the reader's interest is kept at a fever pitch all the way through. Undoubtedly, like the readers of serials in magazines, the reader, as he reads this part, will be saying to himself, "What will Donald do next week?"

Mr. Fleming:

We would both like to know.

Mr. Cameron:

Indeed we would. The minister told us this is a very important measure which is going to solve the economic problems of the provinces and enable them to fulfil their constitutional functions. According to the latest estimate it will cost about $87 million. The statisticians of the dominion bureau of statistics for whose competence with arithmetic I have great respect, tell us that by next March the number of those unemployed and seeking work will reach a million. I find that even the minister and I can do that simple piece of arithmetic. We can divide 1 million into 87 million quite easily, and we come up with $87. We can see all

the wolves at the doors of the unemployed shuddering back in fright at this flaming sword in the hands of the Minister of Finance.

Admittedly, Mr. Speaker, it is an improvement on the record of the unlamented Liberal government, a slight improvement. At least this government has taken one hesitating step. I suppose, because it is an improvement on the sorry record of the previous administration, our Liberal friends have been spending their time chiding the minister for his faulty arithmetic. In my opinion it is a much more serious problem that is involved than that the minister is no better than I in the matter of arithmetic.

I want to go back again to my own province of British Columbia. I want to ask the minister if he is seriously trying to tell us that an additional $2,800,000, I think the latest estimate was, is going to solve the serious problems that are now on the doorstep of the unfortunate Social Credit government of British Columbia. Of course Mr. Bennett may be able to use this $2,800,000 to pay the statutory school grants he gypped the school boards out of in November because he said he had no money. Even if he is able to do that these school districts will still be left with the serious plight that confronts them, and has confronted them for some years, a plight that is giving serious concern to every informed educationist not only in British Columbia but throughout the country. I suggest that the minister should hesitate to imagine that this $2,800,000 is going to solve even that problem, let alone the problem of unemployment, or is in fact going to make any material difference at all to the province of British Columbia.

I am asking these things, Mr. Speaker, because the minister presented this measure in precisely that light. He impressed upon this house the fact that this is a very serious measure, a very important measure; that it presumably is going to have a very serious and important effect upon the economy of Canada. I believe there must be a lot of people who are wondering if the minister has been signing cheques without entering the amounts on the stubs. A lot of people may be wondering whether or not he has been paying enough attention to the bank account before he signs the cheques, and may wonder whether or not some of them may come back marked N.S.F. Even if they do, I would submit that he is making an attempt, which is more than his predecessors in office did.

But we have had no word from him concerning any possibility that he is prepared to see fhat the bank account keeps pace with the cheques he is issuing. I am not going to repeat the figures I put on record

yesterday, Mr. Speaker, but I would suggest this. If this government is going to take even this faltering step, and will continue taking similar steps in the years to come, if by good fortune they find themselves in office again after next week-

Mr. Power:

Whose good fortune?

Mr. Cameron:

Their good fortune; after all I, as a neutral, can observe with equal equanimity either of these two parties sitting in power.

Mr. Pickersgill:

The hon. gentleman has no hope for posterity himself?