January 31, 1958

CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg Norih Centre):

The

hon. member is a bit of a "redskin" himself.

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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Nicholson:

The Prime Minister has given a commitment that someone will be appointed to the other place to represent the Indian people. Since most legislation originates in this chamber, I think we should have a spokesman in this house for the

150,000 Indian people of Canada so they might be able to get a better deal than the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate ever conceived of for them while he was minister of this department.

Following the June 10 election I visited several Indian communities in my constituency which I did not have an opportunity to visit before the election. I suggest that this is a good practice to follow, particularly when one's polls are scattered over such a large area. I find that the meetings in Indian communities are most interesting. It is necessary for the visiting speaker to have an interpreter and usually the parish priest is available to serve in this capacity. It is

customary for the speaker to say a sentence or two and then pause while the interpreter translates the words into the language of the local Indians. After one has spoken, it is surprising how many Indian people express valuable ideas, many of which are more useful and constructive than those we have expressed in this chamber. After one has heard the representations made by these people one realizes that if the suggestions could be acted upon we would be doing better than we have been doing in the field of Indian affairs.

At Sandy Bay we have two completely different worlds. There is the Indian community on one side of the water and a large modern power plant with up to date houses for the people who are employed by the Churchill river power company on the other. The Indians there work on construction and are skilful workers. Although these two communities have existed on either side of the water for 25 years the Indian community still has no power. Power there is very cheap and in fact all heating in the community on the other side is provided by electricity and the homes are equipped with electrical stoves and refrigerators. My Indian friends there find it difficult to understand why there is no power in the Indian village when power is so cheap and readily available. It happens that some of the Indians there are treaty Indians and some are metis. When the federal government has been approached about this question it has advised that conditions at Sandy Bay are much better than those which obtain in other Indian communities. The provincial government takes the same attitude that money is not in as short supply at Sandy Bay as it is in many other communities. It appears to me that some interesting experimental work could be done at this location if we could get an agreement between the provincial and federal authorities.

The management of the Churchill river power company has been keenly interested in this problem. An examination of the annual report of the company reveals that since April, 1956, handicraft orders have been placed to a total value of $16,000 which were shipped from the branch central warehouse. I think that is a small amount to produce.

Perhaps I could refer again to India. The handicraft industry plays an important role in the economy of that country and when one considers this I believe one gets an idea of the possibilities of this industry in Canada among our native Indian population. Our Indian people are highly creative. If a special effort were made on the part of provincial and federal authority to co-operate more

extensively we could perhaps send trained people into the various Indian communities to make a real attempt to increase the production of handicrafts.

I am glad to note that some progress has been made in the field of technical education but we are moving slowly. When one considers that we are prepared to spend $60,000 on the training of a young Canadian when he leaves high school to qualify him for service in the air force it would appear that we should be prepared to spend some money in training people in these isolated Indian communities. We should place greater emphasis on technical training for the young people in Indian communities.

At Sandy Bay and at Island Falls in the northern part of my constituency the young Indian lads who have been employed by this company have demonstrated their skill in the use of machinery. They have a genuine aptitude in this direction and I think we should be spending a larger amount of money and we should make available a larger staff to bring technical education to many of these centres.

I recently received a letter from Sturgeon Landing, one of the northern points in my constituency which served to remind me that I have been unable to visit the Indian people in this community for 14 years. As a result of the influx of settlers the native Indian people have been pushed northwards and westwards and this has posed real problems to the native Indian population. At Cumberland House, the oldest settlement in the province of Saskatchewan, both the general population and the school population have increased in recent years but the fishing reserves and trapping do not provide the livelihood they did 200 or even 100 years ago in that area. We must take into account conditions in this changing world. The $5 annuity that was considered adequate in 1875 can scarcely be considered adequate today and the sum of less than $200 for each person under the provisions of the Indian affairs branch is not adequate in view of the other disbursements made by the government of Canada.

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LIB

James Allen (Jim) Byrne

Liberal

Mr. Byrne:

Mr. Chairman, I hope that the minister's duties this afternoon did not prevent his taking part in the ceremonies in which the modern version of the Bennett wagon was launched. I sincerely hope that it will not become as common a vehicle as its predecessor was.

I rise at this time to speak particularly about the question of Indian affairs because of some comments which have been made concerning the manner in which children of native Indians have been educated throughout 96698-260

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration the years. I had some experience with the Indian affairs branch in my younger years and I know that at that time it was doing everything that was permitted under the act, and I might say permitted under the amount of money that was provided, to improve the standards of education of Indian children. During the years of the Bennett regime I worked at an Indian school and if I recall correctly the children of that school were fed, clothed and educated for about 40 to 45 cents a day.

Members of the C.C.F. party and in particular the hon. member for Nanaimo feel we have been making a very grave error in setting these children aside and teaching them, as well as the natural things, the supernatural things which in my opinion prepare them for their journey through life much better than the purely secular training which the hon. member for Nanaimo would prefer. I think the error the socialists make is that they fail to realize that the error in the first place, in the very early days, was the setting aside of the Indians into reserves, and making them wards of the government. Socialism, was, perhaps, taken to its fullest degree in that instance. Those people were very resourceful when the country was taken over, but they have since declined in resourcefulness. That is not because of the way in which they were treated in the schools; it is because of their original segregation, and it is the inevitable result of making people wards of the state.

We must do more for the Indians. I believe the time is coming when they should be integrated into the rest of the population. But I think it is quite unfair to say that those who have been responsible over the years for attempting to train the Indian children, assisted by only meagre resources, are to blame for the situation today. When the children reach the point of graduating from the grade schools they have no opportunities to go on farther. That, in my opinion, is the most serious handicap which they have suffered. I have known these people, these fathers, brothers and nuns who have devoted their entire lives to the betterment of the Indians. The fact that they were unable to make these people into great scientists is no fault of theirs but rather the fault of the people of Canada who have not been willing to assume the financial responsibility for doing so.

There are several reserves in my riding and at least two of them could be assisted a great deal by a system of irrigation. One, in particular, is the St. Eugene Indian reserve which, I am sure, would make great progress if water could be obtained for the fields. I believe a plan is now going forward, and that some of the white farmers in the area are

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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration forming an organization with the Indian band in an effort to bring water to all parts of the reserve. I hope the department will watch this closely and see what can be done to help in this enterprise. Certainly I hope the department will do whatever it can to give further assistance to those people who have been trained at the school in that area. They have been trained to become farmers, and I am sure they would make excellent farmers if they had the necessary facilities.

My chief object in rising was, of course, to say that the job that had been done by the Indian schools in the past should command the admiration of us all, and I am sure the same excellent work will continue in the future.

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CCF

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Herridge:

I realize I am rising to speak in the shadow cast by the setting sun of this parliament. It may be the last speech I shall have the opportunity of making in this parliament. We do not know. We are living in an atmosphere of uncertainty which, I presume, will be resolved within a short time.

I have listened with a great deal of interest to the remarks made by hon. members who have spoken, and I am not going to take the time of the house by going into my own views, except that I applaud the efforts of all hon. members to improve the conditions of the Indian population. However, I rise to make a somewhat unusual request of the minister and knowing that his roots are deep in the interior of British Columbia I trust I will strike a responsive chord on the harp of his pioneer instincts. [DOT]

The subject with which I wish to deal is related to the former Arrow Lakes Indian band. The last member of this band died, I believe around 1953. At one time, as far as we can ascertain, there were about a thousand of these Indians living in various camps as far north as Revelstoke. In 1811, they definitely assisted David Thompson in his exploration of the Columbia river and worked for the Hudson's Bay Company in connection with the Columbia express which carried on from 1818 to 1866. They were the first pilots on the sternwheel river steamers from North Port to Revelstoke. I have a vivid recollection of their working for the first settlers who carried on agriculture in this area. I went to school with a number of those children-it was a small school with about 18 pupils-and one or two of the squaws worked for us sawing wood at $1 a cord. Those days are gone forever. I was present at the arrest of Chief Louis who was arrested for disemboweling his brother. He returned to Nakusp after about 30 days to live happily ever after, and the curious thing is that though I have searched I have

been unable to find a line in connection with this chief's murder of his brother in any of the archives or police records of that time; nobody has been able to tell me why, after committing this murder, Chief Louis was able to return home and live until the end of his days on the Arrow Lakes. I might explain that violence was not his normal nature, but that the incident was the result of fire water supplied by people who should have known better.

Owing to the decline in the number of those Indians and the arrival of more white settlers, the main camping grounds were disturbed, and in 1906 or 1907 an arrangement was made for the establishment of a small reserve on the Arrow lakes for the remnant of this tribe which then totalled, 24 souls-I have an exact nominal roll for that date.

Those people lived by hunting, fishing and berry picking. In the years after settlement by the white man began they began to grow a little corn and they did odd jobs for ranchers, fruit growers and so on. The last member of the band died in 1953. Just 142 years from the time the white man first arrived on the Columbia river the band became extinct after, so far as we can find out from Indian records and what the Indians told us of the early days, living there in peace and tranquility for hundreds of years. Just think of it, one hundred and forty-two years after the arrival of the white man the band became extinct.

There was some valuable timber on this small reservation. Incidentally, I want to compliment the minister on his new policy with respect to timber on Indian reserves. I am very glad to see that he is having a timber inventory made with a view to some form of timber management. There is no question about it that, as happened on this reserve, and others-I have seen it myself- timber has been slaughtered without the necessary supervision. I understand it was the practice of the department in earlier days to turn the matter over to the provincial forestry branch who would give them an estimate of the timber. The person who made the best stumpage bid would then cut the timber with little supervision. The management of these timber resources was one of those extra duties imposed on the already busy officials of the forestry branch.

Because of my particular interest in the conservation of timber and natural resources, I want to emphasize again that I am very pleased indeed with the policy announced by the minister the other day. It should have been announced a good many years ago. As the result of the sale of the timber

on the particular reserve to which I have been referring, I was informed that when the last survivor died there was a surplus in the band fund of between $3,000 and $4,000. I took up the question at the time and I was advised that, under an agreement with the provincial government, that when the band became extinct the reserve would revert to the crown in the right of the provincial government and any surplus band funds would be returned to the provincial government.

I want to make a suggestion to the minister which I have been asked to mention to him particularly because this is British Columbia's centennial year. The main camp of the Arrow Lake band on the Columbia was always situated at the junction of the Kootenay and Columbia rivers. I remember it quite well. The first crossing of the Columbia south of Revelstoke by a white man took place near the same point, above the junction of the Kootenay and the Columbia.

A number of pioneer residents have suggested to me that for the sake of our coming generations we should do something to commemorate the existence of this small band of Indians who lived for so many years along the Columbia river. This suggestion has been made to me and I make it to the minister. I do not know the status of the $3,000 or $4,000 surplus in the band fund at the present time, but I have been asked to suggest that the minister might use his good offices to suggest to the government of British Columbia that his branch and the government of that province should co-operate to build a memorial or monument at the junction of the Kootenay and Columbia because it is the site of the main encampment of the Arrow Lake band and near the first crossing of the Columbia south of Revelstoke by a white man.

The suggestion is that the Indian affairs branch and the government of British Columbia should co-operate to build a monument to the memory of these Indians as the first citizens of the area and to the memory of the first white pioneers who crossed the Columbia at this point. It has been suggested to me that this dual purpose monument would be most appropriate and most fitting. It would be located in a very scenic spot, as anyone knows who has driven down the road facing the junction of the Columbia and the Kootenay. It would be an additional attraction not only to residents but to tourists, and with some very economical landscaping of the site we would have a record for future generations of the Indian band that lived there for many years and of the white man's 96698-260J

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration first activities in crossing the river at that point. It is a very historic crossing, originally known as Sproat's Landing.

I make that suggestion to the minister. I think it is something we owe to this small Indian band which has disappeared because of its inability to face contact with white civilization. I might say that the majority of the band died of tuberculosis shortly after they moved from wigwams into frame houses. I trust that the minister will give this matter consideration. If after investigation by his officials he finds that the money in the fund has already been paid to the government of British Columbia, will he bring our representations to the attention of the appropriate persons in that government?

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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. Blackmore:

Mr. Chairman, I have listened with much interest and appreciation to the many things which have been said on behalf of the Indians by the various members who have participated in the debate up to the present time. It is not my purpose to take much time as I believe there are others who would like to be able to speak before we turn to other matters at five o'clock.

I should like to say a word about the matter of integration. The hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate recently made the remark that we were all working towards integration. It is important, I believe, that we define first the meaning of integration as applied to the Indians. The Indians do not want integration in the sense that they would inter-marry with white people and cease to be an Indian people. After all the abuse we have given our Indians throughout the generations since we took over responsibility for their welfare, it seems to me that we could at least respect their desire in this important matter. I have always maintained that if the Indians desire to go to white children's schools, if they desire to intermarry with whites, if they desire to accept the white man's religions or to accept the white man's right to vote, that is their concern. Let us give them the utmost freedom to do as they desire.

It is to be granted that future generations of Indians may look upon the matter differently in some respects from the way in which Indians now living now look upon it, but as long as the Indians of today look upon the question of integration as they do, it seems to me that no responsible member of parliament should talk about our wanting integration of the Indians.

While I am referring to the work of the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate, may I say for the record that in my judgment the hon. member, when minister of citizenship and immigration, did a good job. I do not

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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration think he has anything to grieve about in that connection and I am putting these words on record so that they will be there for his descendants to read that he did a good job in his work respecting the Indians. I happen to be in a position to know something of what he has done.

I should like to turn now to the matter of health. It is granted that apparently we have turned over to the Department of National Health and Welfare the responsibility for the health of the Indians.

In a general way, I would raise the question as to whether or not the department of government which has responsibility for the welfare of the Indians should turn over the matters of Indian health to the health department which is not in a position to know the essential facts pertaining to the situation which affects the Indians.

Just to show how serious this could easily be, I raise this question for the minister. I am going to take the reserve which is in my constituency, the Blood Indian reserve. Is it so, that after having established an excellent Indian hospital there, available to the Indians, with a fine staff so far as I know, we refuse to allow Indians into that hospital for treatment, no matter how serious their ailment may be, unless the cash is placed on the barrelhead. I have been told this by Indians; whether it is accurate or inaccurate, I do not know. Not so long ago I was told of an Indian woman who had to have a very serious operation. The man had to go all around amongst his friends, almost frantically to borrow enough money to enable him to pay for the cost of that woman's treatment, because she would not be admitted to the hospital and given that treatment unless he paid the money.

The report may be inaccurate, but let me bring to the attention of hon. members who do not happen to know, that the financial position of the Indian today is very, very precarious. We are having a great amount of difficulty in enabling our white people to secure jobs. Surely, the difficulties an Indian encounters in getting a job must be greatly increased as a result of that condition. The white man is suffering almost intolerably as a result of the rise in prices, for which he is in no respect responsible, and so is the Indian. How can any organization representing a Christian nation, with democratic ideals, deal as callously as I have indicated with Indians who are desperately in need of health services, when all the facilities for the health services are right on the ground, yet the Indians may be unable to get the means with which to pay for those services? May I suggest that if the minister's department has not,

[Mr. BlackmoreJ

up to this time, assumed a very intimate supervision of the way in which the health department of Canada discharges its responsibilities with respect to the Indians, that it institute rigid supervision to make sure the health department administers the health services for Indians in accordance with the ideals of the Indian department.

While I am dealing with this subject, I should like to say a word or two in commendation of the gentlemen who are sitting here as experts for the department. I have had considerable dealings with them and I have found them at all times forward looking and ready to help the Indian. The only thing that is going to be in the way of either the men who constitute the department in an administrative sense or the man who has charge of the department as the minister now does, is money. We have spent one dollar on our Indians where we should have spent $200, and the same thing holds true today. Some people talk about the Indians being more or less dull and lazy. I ask you, what non-Indian would be alert and energetic if he were half starved while he was growing up and had to subsist on food utterly inadequate for the maintenance of sound and robust health? I thought of that while some hon. members across the way were talking about the small amount of food provided for Indians. I want to commend the officials of the Indian department. I have not seen the minister in action long enough to know whether or not I could commend him, but judging from the sincere, effective way he goes at his tasks I think he will do a very good job. He will be hampered though by the lack of money at every single turn.

I wish to raise another matter, and I should like the officials of the department to look into this. Oil wells are being found in southern Alberta. Just exactly what is done to make sure that the Indian receives the amount of money to which he is entitled from the discovery and exploitation of oil on his reserve? Is there a means by which the councillors of the band can find out exactly how much money is being made from any given oil well? Is there any means whereby they can determine exactly what ought to be their share? Is there any means whereby they can appeal if they believe that the share allotted to them is inadequate considering all aspects of the situation? The hon. member for Red Deer asks if this appropriation conforms to provincial regulations of Alberta?

Alberta has been exceedingly wise in the way in which she has administered her whole oil industry. I believe provincial regulations are so designed as to give everybody

Supply-Citizenship and Immigration

who has anything to do with any given oil well a square deal. We want to see that the Indians get their square deal. It may be that in due time there will be a considerable number of oil wells developed on the Blood Indian reserve in southern Alberta. This reserve is only a very short distance from the famous Pincher Creek wet gas field, one of the finest fields in Alberta. The reserve is also only a short distance from the Water-ton Lakes field in Alberta, which appears to be opening into something really good.

I wish to turn to another matter which I believe will be found to be very important. I ask the members of the house, most of whom are practical businessmen, how far would they be able to get in conducting any business if they were not free to go to the banks and obtain the credit they needed for the development and prosecution of their business? They realize they would be utterly helpless. I would ask the minister to look with great care into the matter of the facilities an Indian has on each and every one of the reserves for getting credit with which to buy cattle, machinery, or to obtain any of the other things necessary in order to carry on farming, lumbering or any other industry which might be appropriate, considering the resources of the reserve in question. My information is that the Blood Indians in southern Alberta are unable to get credit. If any of them can get it they will be the very best and most successful of Indians.

One would ordinarily conclude that those who are less successful ought to be able to obtain credit, too, so they can try themselves.

It looks to me as though a considerable amount of money, even if we allow it to be lent to the Indians and in some cases lost, would be well spent in providing ambitious Indians who seem to be credit-worthy in other respects with the means of obtaining loans with which to develop their holdings on the reserves. It could be that it would be wise to establish a sort of small bank on any Indian reservation and to let that bank be administered by someone in conjunction with the agent working along with the agricultural supervisor and those who are put there to help develop the Indian's ability to make a living, with the objective in mind of bringing just as many Indians as possible up to a position in which they can produce and make their own living. I leave that as a suggestion which I believe the minister will find to be quite well worth investigating.

If the minister would wish to answer some of the questions I have raised, I should be glad if he could give us the answers. Perhaps I had better leave the Indian branch until later.

I understand there are one or two hon. members who would like to speak. But I should just like to say this. I am right with all those who are prepared to go forward and put the Indians up where they ought to be, realizing as I do that we have no right to expect the ordinary Indian, raised under the conditions under which he is raised, malnourished as most of them are, for at least a generation, to excel as they would excel if they had the means of getting proper nourishment and proper contact with educational facilities.

Before I resume my seat I may say just a word or two more in respect of the work done by the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate. While he was in charge, he and the fine people who are here before the minister, planned to build a big school in Cardston. Now that school is well along the way to completion. I think they spent $500,000 on that school. Cardston is prepared to take in the Indian children, just as many as will come and just as soon as they will come. They will take them as to school grading just exactly where they find them when they come in from the various other schools. They have set up school rooms in which teachers will teach who are particularly skilful in taking a child and bringing it educationally up to standard. They are prepared to take the Indians and do all that can be done to give them a chance for a good education. The previous minister is entitled to full credit for having taken a forward step in helping to build that school to accomplish that objective, and I want him to receive that credit.

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LIB

Mervyn Arthur Hardie

Liberal

Mr. Hardie:

I rise at this time, Mr. Chairman, to point out to the minister and to the house some of the problems confronting the Indians of the Northwest Territories. I will try to be brief as I am not too sure whether I shall be back here at eight o'clock tonight.

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CCF

Stanley Howard Knowles

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Knowles (Winnipeg North Centre):

Why

not?

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LIB

Mervyn Arthur Hardie

Liberal

Mr. Hardie:

I should therefore like to say a few words with regard to the administration of Indian affairs in the north. Hon. members will recall that in June of 1956, I spoke in this house on the subject of Indian affairs administration in the Northwest Territories. I want to quote from that speech of June 19, 1956. As reported at page 5191 of Hansard I said this:

There is something wrong with the salesmanship in the department of Indian affairs when northern affairs can sell treasury board on a staff of 23 to look after game in the same area in which the department of Indian affairs can sell treasury board on a staff of four to look after human beings, the natives.

I am happy to say, Mr. Chairman, that since that time, the department of Indian

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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration affairs have increased their staff in the Northwest Territories from four persons to ten. But, if the department of Indian affairs want to do a job in the Northwest Territories and, I may say, in the Yukon Territory, they still have some increasing in staff to do. At the present time in the Northwest Territories we have Indian agencies at Yellowknife and Fort Norman which we had, of course, in 1956. Since then the situation has changed. We now have an assistant agent at Hay River in the Northwest Territories and an assistant agent at Fort Simpson in the Northwest Territories.

I should like to put this proposal up to the minister. If he really wants to do a job in the north, I would suggest to him that he do the following. He has his agency at Yellowknife. He now has an assistant agent at Hay River, as I mentioned. This agency in Yellowknife is covering an area of many thousands of square miles. They cover points like Fort Rae, Fort Resolution, Rocher River, Snowdrift, Fort Providence, Jean Marie River, and Fort Simpson. If this agent were to cover this agency, just in one trip with an aircraft, he would travel close to 2,000 miles. Up until this time this agent has attempted to cover this area, but with the meagre estimates which the department of Indian affairs have given him for travel, he can cover this area only once or twice a year.

I want to propose to the minister therefore that an agency be set up at Fort Rae where in the Northwest Territories we have the largest group of Indians in one area. This agent at Fort Rae could look after the Indians at Fort Rae and the Lac La Martre area. The assistant agent you have now at Hay River could look after Hay River, Fort Providence and Fort Resolution. The agent at Yellowknife could look after Yellowknife, Rocher River and Snowdrift. The agent at Fort Simpson could look after Jean Marie River, Fort Simpson, South Nahanni, and Fort Liard. The agent at Fort Norman could look after Fort Norman, Fort Franklin, Fort Wrigley, and Fort Good Hope. Then I would propose in addition to that another agent at Aklavik to look after Aklavik, Fort McPherson, Arctic Red River and, if my friend the hon. member for Yukon will agree-and I am sure he will -Old Crow in the Yukon. I forget the exact mileage, but Old Crow is something like 600 miles from Whitehorse where the only agent of the department of Indian affairs in the Yukon resides. If Old Crow were taken into the Aklavik agency the agent at Aklavik would be within 120 miles of Old Crow.

While on the subject of personnel, I wish to say, as I said in 1956, that the department should hire people who know the Indian, who will live with the Indian and who are interested in improving the welfare and the way of life of the Indian.

[Mr. Hardie.l

It is not necessary to have Ph.D.'s or graduates in social welfare from the University of Toronto. The people we need are those, as I have said before, who are interested in the Indians, are interested in bringing to them a new way of life, in trying to improve their conditions and interested in living with them in their present condition and endeavouring to bring them out into a new world; in other words, helping them to enjoy a way of life such as people in the rest of Canada enjoy. Some of these graduates from the universities are people who would not know a rabbit track from a snowshoe track and they are not the people we need.

I will not deal with the question of education of the Indian, because in the Northwest Territories the Department of Northern Affairs and National Resources has apparently taken over the education of these people and now has residential schools in mind. I will say that when the new schools at Yellowknife, Fort Simpson and Aklavik are completed they will look after the immediate needs of all the Indians living in the Northwest Territories at the present time.

I would like to point out to the committee, as I have done in past, that education is one thing and employment for the graduates of high schools or vocational training schools is another, but the responsibility of providing these people with an opportunity to make a living is placed squarely on the shoulders of the department of Indian affairs. The department should immediately commence a program whereby Indians leaving the schools, whether academic or vocational, will not be required to go back to a life of hunting and trapping, the life lived by their mothers and fathers. There is no use in giving an education to an Indian in these days of the inside lavatory age, with its running water, its showers and its three meals a day and all the rest of it, if immediately he comes out of school he has to go back to his ranch-type hovel. We have been hearing a lot recently about ranch-type bungalows, but it is no use making him go back to his ranch-type hovel where he must eke out an existence by means of trapping and hunting about which he knows nothing.

The problems of education about which I have been speaking are those problems concerning children of school age, but we have other problems. We have the problem of the Indian from the age of 16 up. Such people are not of school age and a large number of them have not been educated at all, in either academic or vocational fields. Therefore it is necessary for them to eke out an existence by way of trapping and hunting.

In this house during the past month or so we have given cash advances to wheat

farmers in western Canada and the other day . we passed a bill to give support to farmers in Canada. At the time the agricultural bill came before us I moved an amendment to bring trappers under the agricultural support program. The Minister of Agriculture, as a result of questions he received from both sides of the house with respect to whether pulp-wood should come under this program, said it "could" come under the program; when he was asked whether fruit would come under the program he said again this commodity could come under the program. From both sides of the house members were asking if this or that commodity would come under the agricultural prices support program and I asked the minister whether fur, fur-farming, or the products of fur-farming, would be covered under this scheme. He said that fur-farming would come under the price support program. Silver fox farms or mink ranches would come under it but not trappers.

My point at that time was that a trapper is a farmer; he traps his areas or his trap line; he takes off a certain amount of his crop this year, he leaves the breeding stock and next year he takes off the crop again. It is necessary for him to look after and farm his area. The minister, however, could not put fur under this program for me. As a matter of fact I did not hear anyone ask if horse manure came under the agricultural prices support program, but I would say if anyone had asked such a question-and if horse manure is not an agricultural product I do not know what is-then he would have said it could come under it. The only thing that could not come under the program was fur.

I would say to the minister in charge of Indian affairs that he should discuss with the Minister of Agriculture the possibility of bringing fur under this price support program and thereby help these people who are eking out their meagre existences by trapping and hunting.

Topic:   CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR CONTINUATION OF BRANCH LINE PASSENGER SERVICE
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PC

Arza Clair Casselman (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Deputy Chairman:

Order. It being five o'clock, it is my duty to leave the chair in order to allow the house to proceed to the consideration of private and public bills.

Topic:   CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR CONTINUATION OF BRANCH LINE PASSENGER SERVICE
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PC

Daniel Roland Michener (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

It being five o'clock the house will proceed to the consideration of private and public bills, the former having priority.

Topic:   CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY
Subtopic:   REQUEST FOR CONTINUATION OF BRANCH LINE PASSENGER SERVICE
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FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT

AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH


The house resumed, from Tuesday, December 3, 1957, consideration of the motion of Financial Administration Act Mr. Poulin for the second reading of Bill No. 9, to amend the Financial Administration Act. (Translation):


LIB

Auguste Maltais

Liberal

Mr. Auguste Maltais (Charlevoix):

Mr. Speaker, I gather that the hon. member for Lotbiniere (Mr. O'Hurley) has concluded his observations on the motion of the hon. member for Beauce (Mr. Poulin) for the second reading of Bill No. 9-

(Text):

Topic:   FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH
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IND

Raoul Poulin

Independent

Mr. Poulin:

On a point of order.

Topic:   FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH
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PC

Daniel Roland Michener (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

Order. What is the point of order?

Topic:   FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH
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IND

Raoul Poulin

Independent

Mr. Poulin:

On the reading of my bill I answered "Stand".

Topic:   FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH
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LIB

Auguste Maltais

Liberal

Mr. Maltais:

Are you afraid to go ahead with this bill?

Topic:   FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH
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IND

Raoul Poulin

Independent

Mr. Poulin:

No, I am not afraid.

Topic:   FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH
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PC

Daniel Roland Michener (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

I must inform the hon. member that the debate can only stand by unanimous consent of the house.

Topic:   FINANCIAL ADMINISTRATION ACT
Subtopic:   AMENDMENT TO PROVIDE FOR PRINTING OF NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS IN BOTH ENGLISH AND FRENCH
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January 31, 1958