Mr. Martin (Essex East):

I listened to the hon. gentleman and I must say the passages he quoted certainly were not the kind of passages which reveal the type of understanding of the problem which I thought he as one coming from the province of Saskatchewan would have. It should not be for a lawyer from Ontario to have to point out to so knowledgeable an hon. gentleman as the minister of northern affairs some of the weaknesses which attended his presentation today.

Mr. Churchill:

Why do you presume to speak on it, then?

Mr. Harkness:

Everybody will take your representations at their true value, all right.

Mr. Marlin (Essex East):

I am sure that is the case, as the Minister of Agriculture is finding out by the criticism which this bill is receiving from one end of Canada to the other, criticism which is now mounting almost as high as the criticism against the government's amendments to the Unemployment Insurance Act which indicated how unpopular that particular measure was.

Order.

Mr. Marlin (Essex East):

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Kenora-Rainy River, who led off for us in this matter, did not speak with any political design, as the minister for northern affairs suggested. He spoke of the inadequate coverage, the inadequate features of this particular measure. He said that it seemed designed to satisfy in principle, if not in fact, the assurances given by this government during the course of the election. He said that it was not designed, however, by this government to encourage wide provincial acceptance and participation. Now, is that an unfair argument to make once again?

The value of this bill will he only in the fact that it will be supported by at least a substantial number of the provinces of Canada. We know of only one province which has given any indication of some satisfaction with this measure. What about the province of Ontario, the largest province of Canada? What about the province of Quebec, the second largest province of our country? There are more farmers in these provinces than in all of the other provinces of Canada. While one does not want to deny to a minority group of provinces their rights, one has the right to ask the Minister of Agriculture whether this measure is going to be accepted by governments representing a large proportion of the farming community. There is

not a word from the minister. Why? Because he has never consulted the provincial governments.

Today we have in the city six provincial premiers. I do not know whether the Minister of Agriculture enjoyed social intercourse with those gentlemen last night when the government of Canada properly entertained them, but if he did I wonder whether he ascertained from the premier of Quebec his intentions with regard to this measure? It is true that the premier of Ontario was not there but his provincial treasurer was there and I think he knows something about Ontario agriculture. Is it the intention of the province of Ontario to participate in this scheme? The premier of British Columbia was there. Is it the intention of the province of British Columbia to participate in this particular proposal? If the answer to these questions is in the negative; if the answer is that we do not know, that surely is not sufficient. Surely the federal government at this time, with regard to a measure that seeks to provide, in the language of the Prime Minister, a comprehensive scheme of insurance, should have designed it with full knowledge of the attitude of the provinces because theoretically they are going to be called upon to bear a greater burden than the federal government.

Mr. Harkness:

No.

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

The minister says "no". The federal government is going to pay 20 per cent of the premium. Who is going to pay the other 20 per cent?

Who repays the loan?

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

Who repays the loan? Is it the government or is it the people? What percentage of the premium is going to be paid by whom, by the provincial government? Is the province of Manitoba going to pay 40 per cent?

Mr. Bigg:

Is the government not the people?

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

I will say this, some governments do not represent the people and I believe that this government increasingly does not represent the people. We should have had from the minister some indication as to how the remaining portion of the premium was going to be borne.

Mr. Harkness:

You have had that.

Mr. Marlin (Essex East):

In what proportions?

Mr. Harkness:

I have told you repeatedly it is up to each individual province.

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

That is no answer. That is the answer the minister gives. He brings this forward and says it is a great

measure; it is going to give insurance to the farmers who will have suffered losses of crops because of damage for one reason or another. Yes, we are going to pay 20 per cent and the other 80 per cent, he says in effect, is going to be paid by someone, the province or the farmer. But does my hon. friend think seriously that any farmer is going to participate in a scheme if the provinces do not bear a greater proportion of the cost than 20 per cent? The Minister of Agriculture is in the unfortunate position in piloting this measure of not being able to give to this house one single bit of information as to the share which any province is prepared to bear.

Mr. Harkness:

I wonder whether the hon. member would let me answer the question he just posed as to whether I think any single farmer is going to participate in this scheme. As a farmer I would be delighted to enter into a scheme of this kind, as would every one of my neighbours I think in the entire area of western Alberta in which I live.

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

I thank the minister for saying that. I would think that what my hon. friend's fellow farmers will do is this. I am sure they will want to participate in this scheme if they can be told whether it is going to be economically possible for them to do so.

Mr. Jorgenson:

Will the hon. member

permit a question?

Mr. Marlin (Essex East):

Let me finish this. If the province is going to bear finally, say, not more than 20 per cent, I would be very surprised if my hon. friend himself would participate in such a scheme and it would be very interesting to ascertain next session whether the farmers in the particular unit in the province that my hon. friend mentioned will subscribe as readily to this scheme if the province is not prepared to bear a greater premium burden than is now being assumed by the federal government.