February 20, 1961

PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I am reading from the Canada year book for 1960, page 985, which covers the year 1957, the year in which this government took office. Surely he does not expect that the rise in the cost of living index would be halted immediately on the government taking office. It may have been 121 but I should like him to notice that in 1958 it was 125, and on going down to July 1960 we find it is 127.5, a rise of 2.5 points. Surely that is a proper comparison and has a far better relation to the situation than the figure he used in assuming that this government

Government Monetary Policy should have been responsible for everything that happened in 1957 and should have rectified things immediately.

The hon. member for Welland (Mr. McMillan) went on to speak about what was happening. He said that the government should know everything that is going on in the Bank of Canada. From the way in which the governor of the Bank of Canada has been speaking about the Bank of Canada, nearly everyone knows what is going on there. He has been going across the country doing a great deal of talking, something that I think he should not do. He is a person in a responsible position and rather than try to paint a gloomy picture of the economy of Canada or of the finances of Canada-

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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LIB

Lionel Chevrier (Official Opposition House Leader; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Chevrier:

He is preaching gloom and doom.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I realize that he is a Liberal appointee and that he may preach just in the way the hon. member for Laurier wants him to preach; I am not sure. However, I think that a person in a responsible position such as that which he holds should have a greater tendency to control his remarks and to keep his comment on Canada to himself or express it to the government in a confidential manner, one or the other.

The hon. member for Welland went on to speak about deficits about the fact that we had a great debt; that debt management was a problem and that the matter of raising the interest for this debt management was an even greater problem. What did the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Pearson) say in 1958? He said that we should have a deficit. He said, "If I were elected Prime Minister of this country I would give all Canadians a tax holiday". What would the deficit have been then? What would the problem of debt management have been? What would the national debt of this country have been if he had been able to fulfil half the promises he made at that time?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

Who would know?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I shudder to think what the problem of debt management would have been or what the interest on the national debt would have been.

The hon. member for Welland talked about fiscal thinking. He said that nobody knows the fiscal thinking of the government. May I say that nobody knows the fiscal thinking of the opposition. On the one hand they are talking about debt management. On the other hand they are saying, "You are not doing enough for unemployment". Yet when we bring in measures to increase employment they say, "Too little and too late". Some of these measures have a tendency to reduce

Government Monetary Policy the government's working capital. They think these measures should be increased and yet the debt should be managed and everything should be in tip-top shape. As one hon. member on this side said, "You cannot have your cake and eat it too".

The hon. member for Welland mentioned trade and the fact that we had sent a trade mission over to Great Britain. He did not mention the fact that our imports from Great Britain had risen from 8 per cent to over 10 per cent of our imports. He did not quote any figures. He just tried to make a joke about the trade mission going over to Great Britain. He did not mention the fact that the trade deficit has been reduced this year to its lowest point since 1952. He failed to bring any concrete reasoning to bear in his speech. He dealt with the matter on a higher plane, as did the Leader of the Opposition; and I must admit that it was sometimes too high for me to understand.

I was greatly interested in the speech on socialism by the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge). Some time ago I asked the member of the new party a question on socialism. I asked him whether he was a socialist or whether the new party was socialist. He gave me some definition of Oscar Wilde's and never answered the question at all.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Charles Edward Rea (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

Order. The hon. member for Kootenay West is rising on a question of privilege.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

Herbert Wilfred Herridge

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Herridge:

The hon. member for Acadia said I made some reference to Oscar Wilde. May I say that I do not read such literature.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I said that the new party member had made the statement when I asked him a question: it is in Hansard. I have never been a follower of the C.C.F. party.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

William Arnold Peters (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Peters:

Thank heaven for that.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I have been in doubt where the new party stands. I have been in doubt whether they stand for socialism or for what they stand. We have often observed the leader of the C.C.F. rise in his place and say, "You backbenchers on the government side always toe the line; you are all a bunch of trained seals; you always vote with the party". When the new party member came into the house we backbenchers thought, "Here is a new train of thought coming into this house; here is a new train of thought that will be produced for the first time. He will vote and he may bring in new suggestions. We shall have to watch him and see how he votes and how his suggestions are received". Mr. Speaker, not once has he voted in a way different from that of the C.C.F.

[Mr. Horner (Acadia) .1

He has fallen right in with them just like a trained seal, and a better one than any we have on this side of the chamber.

I was also in doubt as to where the new party stood. However, I listened to the proposed leader of the new party the other night on television. He went on and on speaking about the great things that public ownership would do. According to him, public ownership would solve all the problems of the whole economy. The financial difficulties of the country would be settled; the unemployment question would be settled; even the drug industry would be settled if he could bring in public ownership. According to him, public ownership would solve all problems. From that speech and from what the hon. member said today about socialism, I gather that the new party is nothing but socialism in a new skin.

The other night on television the leader of the C.C.F. said that public ownership should build the Aurora pipe line. This small pipe line, six inches to eight inches in diameter, is going to run to the United States border from near Waterton lake. He said that through public ownership we could finance it and that we did not need to bring in the Texas buccaneers. If he is going to go this far in public ownership and is going to go into the drug industry, how is he going to create employment and how is he going to rectify the situation as far as the banks are concerned in this country? Actually, what the C.C.F. party is doing is putting a cover over the top of their party, and writing a splashy "new" on the front of it, just like a new box of soap. They are doing just as soap manufacturing companies do when they splashed "New" on the front of their boxes, had a big advertising campaign and sold a little bit more soap. Perhaps they will sell a little bit more soap; I do not know.

But actually, Mr. Speaker, the C.C.F. was founded by labour. Mr. Woodsworth was elected to this house in 1926 as a labour representative and again in 1930. Then in 1932 there was the big conference and they brought in the farmers and they were going to be the new party at that time. Today what are they doing? This summer they are going to have another big conference and reunite the farmers and labour, so they say. The sad facts of the story are that they never had the farmers behind them, that they never reunited anything; and they probably will not do any reuniting in July. We have just seen what the socialists really stand for. We have had another definition today. But if there is any doubt in anybody's mind as to where they are going or what they stand for, it was certainly cleared

up not so long ago when the union bosses said, "We will have the premier of Saskatchewan for our leader". They pick the boy; they call the shot. The poor hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue) has not much of a chance when they call it.

Of course, this new party is going to be different; it is going to rectify the whole financial situation in this country. Some of the members sitting in the present C.C.F. group in this house say the new party is not going to amount to much. Some of them say this because they do not like union bosses and they realize unions are going to control the new party. Some others say the new party is just a flash in the pan and they are not going to run again ar yway. We hear this sort of talk.

Again you have to consider that some C.C.F. members even outside the house might have difficulty in joining the new party because I read in the Toronto Telegram a week ago that communists are not going to be allowed in that party.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

William Arnold Peters (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Peters:

That does not leave you much hope then.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

Of course, if they exclude them, this might bring a new train of thought into the new party; I do not know.

But how will public ownership aid employment, that is the question? How will public ownership cure the financial position of this country, if we are as sick as the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) says we are?

What did the socialists do when they took over in Saskatchewan? They bought out six or seven manufacturing concerns and lost nearly $1 million in those concerns. Is that the way they are going to rectify the financial siutation of this country, buying industries and then losing money on them? That is what happened in Saskatchewan, and this is all common knowledge to anybody who has any close connections with Saskatchewan.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

William Arnold Peters (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Peiers:

How was it you fellows did not do better in the last provincial election?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

Mr. Speaker, these remarks remind me of the proverb in the good book, "A scorner seeketh wisdom, but findeth not; but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth".

What about the population increase of the province? That is an interesting comparison in itself.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Charles Edward Rea (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

Order. I think perhaps the hon. member had better come back to federal matters that are before the house. The Chair has been quite lenient with the hon. member in allowing him to

Government Monetary Policy make comparisons, but I do not think he should be allowed to enter into a full discussion of strictly provincial matters.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I have always understood the rule of the house to be that if somebody speaks on a particular matter others can follow suit and deal with the same subject.

Let us take a look at the earnings per capita across Canada and compare them with the earnings per capita in the province of Saskatchewan. In doing so you have first to compare the population growth in the provinces. In Saskatchewan the amazing and most interesting thing is that it is the only province in Canada that has not grown in population from 1941 to 1956, according to the census taken in 1956. There was a decrease in population during that period.

Of course, some hon. members might well say, "Why did they leave?" This question might well apply to myself. I left Saskatchewan in 1945. I think the decrease in population and the decrease in per capita earning of that province are due directly to the socialist government in Saskatchewan. Their method of doing business does not create the right environment for growth; that is why this province has lagged behind every other province in Canada, even Prince Edward Island.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Charles Edward Rea (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

Order. I suggested to the hon. member that he get away from provincial matters. I hope the hon. member will take note of my suggestion.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

Mr. Speaker, I am not referring to provincial matters in any direct relation to federal matters. I am referring to Saskatchewan because it is the only socialist province in Canada and I am comparing socialist methods-

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Charles Edward Rea (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

Order. If the hon. member can show me what socialism has to do with this amendment I might be very happy to allow him to continue on this different line.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I have always understood that the debate followed the trend set up by the original speakers. The hon. member for Kootenay West spoke of nothing else but socialism. He expounded the theories and pious hopes he had for socialism; how it could rectify all our ills; how we had a sick nation and socialism would cure it. I think I should be allowed to follow the line of reasoning he presented, to see how it could cure our problems.

The Aciing Speaker (Mr. Rea): Order. If the hon. member will stay in generalties, certainly; but I do not want this to become a

2236 HOUSE OF

Government Monetary Policy debate on socialism in the province of Saskatchewan. That is the point I was trying to make.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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February 20, 1961