February 20, 1961

PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I will do my best, Mr. Speaker, to stay in generalities. I have always felt, like many other members of this house, that to solve anything you must get to the-

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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LIB

Lester Bowles Pearson (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Liberal

Mr. Pearson:

"Root".

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

-root of the problem. Thank you. You must do this to see what you are doing, where you are going. You need to see what somebody else is doing, if you are to study the problem.

There has been a great deal of talk about finance and how we should allow depreciation for capital investment in certain depressed areas; how manufacturing needs finances to get started. Let us look at manufacturing in the province of Saskatchewan; let us compare it with the province of Alberta. I will be brief. In 1943 there were 1,100 established manufacturing firms in Alberta. They employed 18,000 workers. In 1957 there were something like 1,900 established manufacturing firms in the province of Alberta and they employed 39,000 people. They doubled the employment figure.

In Saskatchewan in 1943 there were 960 established manufacturing firms. In 1957 that number had decreased to 844 and employment in those industries only went up by 1,000. You might say, "What has this to do with finance?" I will tell you. In the province of Saskatchewan there is no manufacturing firm that employs over 500 persons. This is the only province in Canada that has no large manufacturing industries.

This points out that large firms are reluctant to invest in socialist surroundings. Of course, the government of Saskatchewan recently realized this. They started a steel plant in Regina. They had to do it with private capital; they invited Texas buccaneers up to start that plant. The government invited them up; the minister of finance of that time went down to invite them up. And in that corner they talk about Texas buccaneers bringing money into this country. They say we have to stop it.

We must consider that in the manufacturing industry in Canada we have a large number of products being produced from a large number of different basic materials. Saskatchewan and Alberta have an equal number of materials available for the development of manufacturing. We have manufacturing companies using those products in Alberta. Saskatchewan no longer has any manufacturer of leather products. Of course, everybody in Saskatchewan knows the socialist government bought out the tanneries and

[The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea).]

went broke. They went out of business and nobody had courage enough to reinvest in that industry.

The same thing applies to knitting mills in the province of Saskatchewan. They closed down, and nobody has had enough courage to reinvest in them. Until recently the province of Alberta had never taken any steps to clamp down on industry. They recently brought in an industrial tax, which I do not like, but they may get away with it. But last fall- and this is a very good example-we had some large financial concerns interested in investing money in western Canada. Where did it go? Well, it went to a little city by the name of Medicine Hat, Alberta. I was born just north of Saskatoon, I used to turn on the radio and hear them advertise Saskatoon as the hub city of the west. If you look at the map you will realize that Saskatoon is a short distance from Winnipeg, with direct rail connection to Regina, direct rail connection with Prince Albert, direct rail connection with North Battleford, Calgary and Edmonton. It is an ideal location for financial interests to invest in, and far better than Medicine Hat, because transportation costs are one of the most important things to which industry pays attention. Why did they choose Medicine Hat? They chose it because they were afraid to invest money in Saskatchewan under its socialist type of government. An ideal position was available to them, but they passed it over and went to Alberta to turn out their rubber tires and so on. I am referring to the Goodyear Rubber concern which employed 300 men in Medicine Hat last fall. Another important firm, Firestone, went to Calgary and started up there, by-passing Saskatchewan because of fear of socialism.

This shows that although socialism might cure unemployment for a short time, because of the necessary increase in civil servants, it will eventually produce a climate in which business cannot possibly develop.

Much has been said about industry, and how financial capital is lacking for its encouragement-how there is no money left for the development of industry, and so on. But suppose we look at the mining industry. It surprised me to read that the province of Saskatchewan, apart from the production of fuels, has the third largest mineral wealth of all the provinces of Canada. Alberta leads Saskatchewan if you add petroleum, but Saskatchewan ranks second to Quebec in mineral wealth if fuels are excluded. So many times when somebody mentions Saskatchewan, we think: that is the wheat province of Canada. But even the Saskatchewan government has recently agreed that Saskatchewan is no longer the wheat province, but a wealthy province with great industrial resources. They

have taken "wheat province" off their licence plates. I do not know if the farmers like that very much. They have, at least, realized they have something else besides wheat, though of course they are not doing a very good job of developing it.

This is easy to see if, for example, one looks at the development of hydro power. Compare the development of hydro power in Saskatchewan with the development which has taken place in any other province in Canada. It has been left far behind. In 1940, Saskatchewan produced 99,000 horsepower units. Today they have got 128,000 horsepower units. Compare this with the situation in Alberta. Alberta, in 1940 had 71,000 horsepower units. Today, they have 312,000 horsepower units. That is a sharp increase in Alberta, compared with a very poor increase in Saskatchewan. And how did that development of power occur in Saskatchewan? Mainly from a large smelter along the Churchill river in the north. Of course, this government has decided to go ahead with the Saskatchewan dam project. The great financial expenditure involved in that province will no doubt create a good many more jobs there and, no doubt, create also to a certain extent, an environment which will allow Saskatchewan to increase its population. The former government realized that the Saskatchewan dam should be built. Jimmie Gardiner, when he was minister of agriculture, said: yes, it is a necessity for Saskatchewan; we must have it. But the prime minister of that day said it was not in the best interest of Canada as a whole. You would not call that a one-man government. It was just that the prime minister said no, and Saskatchewan never got the dam. Now let us take a look at the forest industry. In 1958-

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

William Arnold Peters (Whip of the Co-operative Commonwealth Federation)

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Peters:

Is there any chance of your making a federal speech when you go home to Saskatchewan?

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

Government Monetary Policy should export it. That is all right; that is their view but they are not in power in Alberta or Canada and we can be thankful for that.

What did they do in Saskatchewan? Before any oil industry would go into the province, before it would invest a plugged nickel in the province, the premier of the province had to give a written guarantee that he would not expropriate any of the property or any of the investments in oil development. What did they do three years ago? The provincial treasurer or the premier said that there was oil under the road allowances and that the companies had to give one more per cent to cover the oil remaining below the roadways. That was the small, niggardly approach on the part of the premier of the province to try to squeeze another per cent or so out of the industry.

In some respects the oil industry has been hit hard within the last few years because of the shortage of markets in the world and perhaps in Canada. I have considered this problem very seriously; I have tried to visualize how socialism would cure the sick economy, as the hon. member for Kootenay West (Mr. Herridge) described it.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Charles Edward Rea (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member, but I have been advised that his time has expired.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

John (Jack) Henry Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner (Acadia):

I was going to make one more statement.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

Frank Howard

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Frank Howard (Skeena):

It is a shame to cut off the entertainment, but I believe that is what the rules of the house say and it is a wonder that some people do not abide by them more often.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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?

An hon. Member:

Listen to who is talking.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

Frank Howard

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Howard:

If my friend wants to get into an across-the-floor discussion about something that happened earlier, I have just about as much feeling about the actions now as I did then.

After listening to this frenzied, arm-waving hysterical attack on a provincial government, I am reminded of the belligerent, bellowing of a wild bull. It had just about as much sense, too, Mr. Speaker, but there is one thing that comes through in all of this.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

You lack horns.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

Frank Howard

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Howard:

That is something that you do not lack and yours grow on the inside, obviously.

There is one thing that comes through in speeches such as we have just heard from the hon. member for Acadia (Mr. Horner) and the one we heard earlier from the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Woolliams) and the one he made a few days before, and the

one he made before that. They were all along the same line of thinking, all exhibiting an inner fear of the socialist movement, all of them afraid of what it will do to them in their own constituencies.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

Don't worry, my friend.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

Frank Howard

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Howard:

I never worry about you, my friend, nor about what comes out of this type of discussion. It is not a rational analysis of the economic problems in the country today, which we are supposed to be dealing with if this amendment means anything, but a hysterical attack on something that neither one of them can understand but which they fear.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

We do not stand alone.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Charles Edward Rea (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Progressive Conservative

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Rea):

Order.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

Frank Howard

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Howard:

You can't stand on your own feet, either.

The hon. member for Acadia started off by wondering whether the Liberal party was really serious, or whether it was playing politics in this particular amendment. I think perhaps he knows the answer as well as the rest of us do, and that is that they are just playing politics and their serious moments are few and far between. The Tories are in the same class. That is why I was sure that my friend from Acadia recognized that the Liberals were not serious in respect of unemployment, which is one of the subject matters with which we are dealing.

I have noticed also that the debate, in so far as unemployment is concerned, which is what I should like to deal with, has oscillated between the juggling of statistics and the making of unprincipled attacks upon people who are not here to defend themselves; the using of a privileged position to get away with what I would call slanderous statements, or what could be slanderous statements if they were made outside. This is unfortunate. I think you will notice also, Mr. Speaker, that those who used the statistics so lavishly, juggled them so ably and distorted the picture of unemployment in this nation, were perhaps in reality paying silent tribute to Mr. Allister Grosart. They took most of the statistics out of "The Record Speaks" to which we have made reference from time to time here. On three occasions I have pointed out that "The Record Speaks", the Tory propaganda piece, is absolutely false and casts some suspicion upon the writers of the statistical material.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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PC

Eldon Mattison Woolliams

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Woolliams:

Now we hear the truth.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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CCF

Frank Howard

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Howard:

My friend would not recognize the truth if he heard it.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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?

Some hon. Members:

Ten o'clock.

Topic:   UNEMPLOYMENT
Subtopic:   GOVERNMENT MONETARY
Sub-subtopic:   POLICY AND DEBT MANAGEMENT
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February 20, 1961