February 21, 1961

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

The hon. member has had his opportunity on the question of privilege and he has not denied it. After all, oil has to come into the question. Everybody else

brings oil into the question of the coal problem, so why should not I bring it in? Why has the hon. member offered no criticism of the administration of the day in New Brunswick which is going to use oil in the thermal plant there and by-pass considerable assistance from the federal government? In the event that they used coal in the Saint John thermal plant this government would have assisted to a great extent. They have by-passed that assistance in favour of using oil. I need not go on to explain why the hon. member is probably very much aware why they have by-passed coal.

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LIB
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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

I want no explanation from the hon. member because I have already told this house, and I will tell it to the world if necessary, that the hon. member is not in possession of any information on the coal problem that I do not possess. In fact I have stated here flatly that the hon. member is not in possession of any information on the coal problem. He does not have an interest in coal, and it is only a hypocritical attitude on his part to get up in the house and say he has.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. May I draw to the attention of the hon. member that he must address the Chair, and I must also warn him about his last words.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

Mr. Speaker, I think I have clearly indicated my stand in the house on the statement I have made. If I am asked to withdraw it, you might as well save your breath because here is one member who does not withdraw from the truth.

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LIB

Hédard-J. Robichaud

Liberal

Mr. Robichaud:

Mr. Speaker, the hon.

member has used the word "hypocritical". I think that is an unparliamentary word and should be withdrawn.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I agree that if the word was used in reference to the hon. member for Gloucester, it should be withdrawn, but I understood the hon. member to indicate he was willing to withdraw that word.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

Mr. Speaker, I was referring to an attitude which I firmly believe is true and I do not propose now to withdraw from the truth of any statement which I feel I can truthfully make.

Som

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a hon. Members:

Oh, oh.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. If the hon. member used the word mentioned in connection with the hon. member for Gloucester I am sure he will realize that this expression is unparliamentary, and on reflection he will

understand that for the dignity of debate in this house he should withdraw the word unconditionally.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

I do not intend to further this argument. I made the statement to the effect that the hon. member's attitude was hypocritical. I do not see why I have to withdraw that in respect to any personalities who may be involved, because my statement has reference to an attitude and was not in reference to the hon. member. I had referred to the attitudes adopted not only by the hon. member but by his party as a whole.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I will put it this way. If the hon. member was referring only to the hon. member for Gloucester, he must withdraw that word.

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PC

Edwin William Brunsden

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Brunsden:

Mr. Speaker, on a point of privilege, I have listened very closely to the hon. member for Cape Breton South. He did not say the hon. member for Gloucester was a hypocrite. He was referring to a hypocritical statement.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

The word was mentioned in a statement by the hon. member concerning the hon. member for Gloucester. I am sure the hon. member for Cape Breton South will clarify the situation and say that he did not refer to the hon. member for Gloucester in this connection, or if he did, he withdraws the word.

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PC
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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

Mr. Speaker, I want my stand to be clearly understood. My criticism and my reference to "hypocritical" was referring to an attitude. If the hon. member feels, when anybody on this side of the house makes a reference to an attitude, that it applies to him alone, it only further indicates to me his earlier thinking, when he indicated that he is in possession of a great many facts and a great deal of knowledge.

Does this mean he has all the knowledge of the Liberal party, all the knowledge on all statements that are made? My remarks were to the effect that the statements were hypocritical and there was no reflection on any one hon. member when I said that.

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LIB

Lionel Chevrier (Official Opposition House Leader; Liberal Party House Leader)

Liberal

Mr. Chevrier:

On the point of order, Mr. Speaker, may I say that the rule is quite clear. It is standing order 35, which says- without reading the whole of it-that no member shall use offensive words against any member of the house.

The words used by the hon. member were "the hypocritical attitude of the hon. member for Gloucester". The hon. member for Cape Breton South, in explaining his position, said he referred to a hypocritical attitude, but he 90205-6-1454

Coal industry

did not add the additional words, namely "the hypocritical attitude of the hon. member".

Those words, in my opinion, according to Beauchesne's, are unparliamentary and should be withdrawn unreservedly.

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PC

George Clyde Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue)

Progressive Conservative

Hon. George C. Nowlan (Minister of National Revenue):

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Cape Breton South said a moment ago, just before the hon. member for Laurier rose in his seat, that he was not referring to the hon. member who had made this address or to any other particular hon. member. He said he was referring to an attitude, and he stated specifically that he was not referring to any particular hon. member.

That is exactly what he said and I am sure Hansard will bear out when we see it tomorrow. If that is the situation there is nothing the hon. member has to withdraw, I submit with deference, because he has said he was not referring to an individual but to an attitude.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

It was not very clear to the Chair that the hon. member said he was referring to an attitude of an hon. member. If he wishes to repeat that he was not referring to the hon. member, I think the incident could be closed.

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LIB

Leon David Crestohl

Liberal

Mr. Crestohl:

Mr. Speaker, on this question of privilege, under citation 298 of Beauchesne's second edition it is clearly stated that the following expressions have also been ruled out of order, "hypocritical lovers of liberty" and "hypocrites" even when used without referring to any particular statement by anybody. The expression used is unparliamentary and the hon. member should withdraw it.

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February 21, 1961