February 21, 1961

PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Order. I have already indicated very clearly that the expression used concerning an hon. member was not parliamentary. That is very clear and there is no need for discussion on that. I have asked the hon. member, if he used the expression about the hon. member for Gloucester, to withdraw it unreservedly. If he claims he did not use it in connection with the hon. member for Gloucester perhaps he would make it clear that he was not referring to the hon. member.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

That is exactly what I did before I resumed my seat.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

Perhaps we could settle the question of privilege raised by the hon. member for Gloucester before any other problem is raised.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

I have indicated, as I said before I took my seat, that my reference was to a statement or statements, and that it was

Coal Industry

not directed to any one member. How much Mr. Robichaud: I accept your ruling, Mr. further am I required to go to satisfy this Speaker, but I reserve the right tomorrow childishness? to refer to Hansard.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

If the hon. member for Gloucester is satisfied with that statement it would be satisfactory. What I tried to indicate to the hon. member for Cape Breton is that if he used the words "hypocritical statement" as applied to the hon. member for Gloucester, then that expression was not parliamentary and should be withdrawn unreservedly. That is what I am asking the hon. member for Cape Breton to do.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

That is exactly what I have done. I have said that the statement I made was not directed to the hon. member for Gloucester.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I have not before me the exact expression used by the hon. member for Cape Breton but I must say that if he claims now that this statement was not directed to the hon. member for Gloucester, I think the house has to accept the denial and therefore the matter of privilege is closed.

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LIB

Leon David Crestohl

Liberal

Mr. Cresiohl:

With all due deference, Mr. Speaker, it makes no difference whether or not the expression is directed to one individual or another. The expression itself is unparliamentary. Citation 298 gives a list of expressions which are unparliamentary, and the words "hypocritical" and "hypocrite" are contained in this list.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

I think I have made myself clear. The hon. member for Cartier is arguing the same thing as he argued before, and I have explained that these words are unparliamentary if applied to a member of the house. However, if they concern an attitude generally or anything that is not connected directly with an hon. member they are not considered to be unparliamentary. I think the incident should be closed, because the hon. member for Cape Breton has made it clear that he did not apply this expression to the hon. member for Gloucester or to a statement made by the hon. member for Gloucester. I think this closes the incident.

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LIB

Hédard-J. Robichaud

Liberal

Mr. Robichaud:

Since it was said that I had made hypocritical statements I want to be sure that the record is not changed tomorrow.

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PC

Jacques Flynn (Deputy Speaker and Chair of Committees of the Whole of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Deputy Speaker:

The hon. member knows that the record cannot be changed. It may be that on consulting Hansard tomorrow he will find it is something else, but the hon. member has stated his remarks did not apply to the hon. member for Gloucester and the hon. member, for the time being, should accept that.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

I should just like to wind up my remarks-there has been some delay -and refer for a moment to what the executive of the united mineworkers of America feels about the action taken by this government in delaying any action on the part of Dosco. As I have indicated, I have felt that the attitude of Dosco requires some investigation and some considerable study because it is my belief that the attitude taken by them towards the miners in Cape Breton and the community as a whole is not one which can be accepted. I myself do not for a moment accept the reasons given for closing No. 4 colliery in Glace Bay. Mr. Fairley has at times made statements in reference to this colliery and, as I have said before, not only has he been caught off base but he has been caught out in left field. He has indicated that there has been no development going on in the west side. But miners have told me that this development work is 85 per cent complete. Mr. Fairley tells me there has been no development on that side of the mine. I have on occasions reminded Mr. Fairley that this is not so. The facts are very easily proven by press releases from his own company. However, among the excuses for closing, there is the statement that no development work has been going on. I have made statements which have been severely criticized. The members of the opposition have been receiving newspaper clippings from the local paper in my constituency which severely criticize me. That is part of public life. We all have to stand up to a certain amount of criticism, and I can take it when I consider the source.

I have here a newspaper clipping whose heading says: "Marsh, Dolhanty, say Statements are Inaccurate". They are the president and vice president of UMW District 26. I am a member of the union, a member of the Caledonia Local, a paid up member. The clipping is here for everybody to see, and I face up to the situation every time. They go so far as to say my statements were immoral, and when they say that they are referring to a remark I made at Sydney when I said that 800 miners at Caledonia colliery were not getting the support from their union executive that they could rightfully expect. This is the statement that brought on all the criticism. They say it was immoral. I went on to say I thought the union executive would be satisfied with fewer contented miners rather than a large number of discontented miners. This was the statement they referred to as being immoral. Yet I pointed out clearly that this was exactly the practice followed

by John L. Lewis, formerly president of the union in the United States. He advocated the closing of uneconomic mines. Strictly on a business level that idea might have merit. It does not have merit when applied to the Caledonia colliery at Glace Bay because that colliery is economical. Anybody who withdraws from the argument because of that consideration is withdrawing from the truth. It can easily be proven, but this is one portion of the argument which the union has failed to put forward on behalf of the miners of No. 4 colliery.

Now I should like to call the attention of the house to what the executive members of the UMW think of the action taken by this government. In criticizing me, Mr. Dolhanty says:

I only hope that he is not voicing government policy. We have worked very closely with both the provincial and federal governments over the years. They have given us much help.

I have placed on the record what the UMW executive has said about this government. They have worked very closely together and this government has given them very much help. Those are the words of vice president Dolhanty. There they are in black and white.

I notice that the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin) is finally back in his seat. That hon. gentleman saw fit to rise in this house and ask direct questions of the Minister of Mines and Technical Surveys. The hon. member is very seriously concerned about the situation in Cape Breton, so seriously concerned that he failed to answer a letter I sent to him on behalf of these same miners. So seriously concerned with this matter is the hon. gentleman that I have never seen anything that he has said that takes opposition to the policy enunciated by the former leader of his party and then prime minister of Canada. I will remind him what the former prime minister said. Since the hon. member is late in arriving, I will repeat it for his benefit. The former prime minister said, in effect, leave the coal in the ground for future generations so they can manufacture synthetic articles.

One of the hon. member's colleagues took exception to this and has been severely criticized editorially for so doing.

It is my hope and I am sure it is the hope of every hon. member from Cape Breton and Nova Scotia that the closing down of mines in Nova Scotia and Cape Breton can be further delayed. I might say that the action taken by this government has had the effect of continually setting back this date. Attempts have been made for some considerable time to close the mines. A trend of closing mines gained impetus from 1946 to

Coal Industry

1956. This government brought that trend to a halt. Regardless of what is said by hon. members of the opposition, this government is the only government that has taken a genuine interest in the miners of Nova Scotia.

The very determined effort on the part of Dosco to close out No. 4 colliery on January 14, has again been delayed to May 31. It is my hope that something will develop between now and that date which will bring about a further delay of these proposed shutdowns.

I wish now to speak briefly about the so-called new party. Apparently it operates under the delusion that it is going to be the saviour of the Cape Breton miner. The new party has a certain element of the Cape Breton miners believing that this new party is capable of saving the industry. I do not know how beneficial the new party will be, but I remind the Cape Breton miners that there is no hope of salvation to be found in the new party. I think there is very little hope of the new party finding itself elected anywhere. As far as I can see personally, it is simply not going to go over. In fact, I draw that conclusion from some of the remarks that have been made from time to time by hon. members down in the corner of the chamber.

I do not mean to hurt the feelings of the hon. member for Assiniboia (Mr. Argue). I have been given to understand through the press and other media that the man who could have the leadership of the so-called new party merely by snapping his fingers is Mr. Douglas. All that is required, apparently is that he accept the leadership of the so-called new party. I do not really get the drift of this matter. They were labour, they became the C.C.F. and now they are merging with labour and farmers to become the new party. I hope they get the name straightened out before too long so we will know exactly what they are.

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CCF

Murdo William Martin

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Marlin (Timmins):

Mr. Speaker, I rise to a point of order. Would the hon. gentleman let us know what Premier Douglas has to do with the coal industry?

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PC

John (Jack) McIntosh

Progressive Conservative

Mr. McIntosh:

We also have coal out in Saskatchewan.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that the hon. member has given me this excellent opportunity to bring to his attention what the potential leader of the so-called new party has had to say about the coal industry.

Hon. members will recall that not too long ago a new party seminar was held in the city of Montreal in which Mr. Douglas played a prominent part. For the benefit and interest

Coal Industry

of the hon. member who directed a question to me I will now quote from newspaper reports relating to that seminar:

Premier Douglas asked what point there would be in nationalizing coal mines or railways when they were obsolete.

Mr. Douglas wanted to know what would be the point in nationalizing the coal industry when he considers it obsolete. How much faith can the miners of Cape Breton, Nova Scotia or any other province in Canada place in the future of coal if this would-be leader ever realizes his ambitions? Of course, I cannot say with certainty what his ambitions are. I am not sure if it is his ambition to lead this group comprised of labour, the C.C.F., the new party or whatever they choose to call themselves. However, Mr. Douglas has flatly gone on record with respect to his attitude toward the coal industry in Canada.

I am very much surprised that Mr. Douglas would tie in the coal industry and the railways. I should hate to think of the position the province of Saskatchewan would be in without the railways. Mr. Douglas has clearly indicated his stand on the coal question. He considers that the coal industry is obsolete and that there is no point in nationalizing it. I am sure that if Mr. Douglas is going to look for any support among the executive of the UMW, which has consistently supported the C.C.F., he will have a lot of explaining to do with respect to this policy.

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CCF

Douglas Mason Fisher

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Fisher:

He is a good Baptist. He can explain it.

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Malcolm MacInnis

Mr. Maclnnis:

I am afraid that even though he is a good Baptist this policy will not be acceptable to the executive of the UMW. I am afraid that Mr. Douglas, even as a good Baptist, will have difficulty explaining this policy to the members of the executive of the UMW. I almost said "members of the executive of the C.C.F." but that would have been all right because the two are practically synonymous.

Nationalization is what the leader of the UMW is promoting right at this moment. He is promoting it on the basis of the Rand report.

This is something I fail to understand. Mr. Sheppard, a so-called authority, recommended that a committee should go from Cape Breton to study production methods in England. That was the suggestion made in this regard. Mr. Sheppard, the expert, recommended that a committee should study production methods in the old country because they have increased their production by 50 per cent as a result of the production methods employed there. Nobody took into consideration, however, that even with a 50 per cent increase in production the industry in the old country is still behind

the production capacity of the Cape Breton mines. It is a ridiculous suggestion to urge that a committee go abroad to examine the production methods in a country where the industry does not have our production capacity per man ton per day. Nevertheless this is the recommendation at which they jumped and which they followed through.

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PC

Daniel Roland Michener (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Speaker:

It being ten o'clock it is my duty, pursuant to section 3 (f) of standing order 26 as provisionally amended, to interrupt these proceedings and put forthwith the question on the motion now before the house.

Motion agreed to and the house went into committee, Mr. Flynn in the chair.

The estimates of the following departments were first taken up and entered for consideration:

DEPARTMENT OP LABOUR General administration-

178. Departmental administration including a grant of $10,000 to Frontier College and the expenses of the international labour conferences, $1,373,104.

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DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS


329. General administration including a grant of $2,000 to the Canadian Good Roads Association, $10,667,720. DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND COMMERCE General administration- 394. Departmental administration, including fees for membership in the international organizations listed in the details of the estimates (also includes the National Industrial Design Council transferred from the national gallery), $3,275,445. Proceedings reported.


February 21, 1961