Mr. Peters:

Obviously I did not recommend him. If I had been asked to do this I would have recommended people who are as impartial as possible.

Oh, oh.

Mr. Peters:

Let hon. members not laugh because this is no laughing matter as far as I am concerned. The people of my riding are to be asked all these questions and I take violent exception to these political appointments being made for the obtaining of this information. I would suggest to anybody in Timiskaming who has any political sense at all that they do not answer any of these questions because the information will be used against them in a political way in the future. This information is advantageous to a political party for political reasons and there is not going to be the secrecy there should be with regard to the answers to the questions that are asked on this page. They are quite detailed and particular questions.

I suggest that no one should laugh at this matter. People of the greatest impartiality

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Supply-Trade and Commerce are required because it is essential that the answers to the questions be completely honest. Conservative members can laugh all they like. Canadians are going to have to spend a lot of money to conduct this census and I am sure they want to get the most impartial, accurate and complete picture possible. I suggest that anyone who gives information of this sort to some of these political hacks is stupid, and I do not believe the people of Timiskaming are stupid.

Let us take the riding of Timmins with which I am fairly familiar. The first names here are Mrs. Hilda Weir of Matheson and Mr. Charlie Shields of South Porcupine. I will not say anything about Mrs. Weir. If she had been listed under her husband's name I might have known her but I do not know her by her own first name and therefore am not going to comment. Mr. Charles M. Shields has been mayor of South Porcupine and a staunch Conservative for many years. He is in a position to know almost everybody in the area personally. He has been there for many years, and while I am not prepared to say that he has been closely enough connected with the operations of the Conservative party in that area to cause me much grief I am not quite sure that the same thing would be true of the hon. member for Timmins.

Mr. Thomas Gregory Carswell of Timmins is also a well known and outspoken Conservative. He has attended Conservative conventions in that area for many years. His family has been closely connected with the nomination of candidates and in my opinion he is in a position to make political use of this appointment.

The last name in area D is Mr. J. Emile Brunette. Again, who could be appointed from the Conservative party who would be closer to the political scene than J. Emile Brunette? He was not always a Conservative. He could have had this appointment as a Liberal because he ran as Liberal candidate several times and as the mayor of Timmins for several years was well known as a Liberal. However, in recent times of changing environment in the town of Timmins he became a Conservative and ran as a Conservative candidate in the last election against the sitting member for Timmins. Perhaps he might have been elected as a Liberal but after a person changes his party it is very difficult for him to be elected.

Each of these appointments has been a political one. I do not know what the government thinks about it. I do not know why the government should have done this. It is interesting to note that Mr. Grosart was in my area and disrupted the town council, probably resulting in the resignation of the

mayor of the town. Certainly there are going to be some other changes. Mr. Grosart made several important statements, but I suggest that the reason he was there was to talk to these people about the appointments that were to be made.

I suggest that if you check the Toronto papers you will find that in the last few days there has been speculation that there can be no by-elections in Ontario this year because the whole Conservative machine will be engaged in conducting the census and will not have the time to run by-elections. This is true in my part of the country although we do not need a by-election. Certainly looking at this list it is evident that the whole hierarchy of the Conservative party is engaged in the census.

Mr. Charlton:

No, there are many more than that.

Mr. Peters:

I do not think so. In my riding we have the president, the candidate and two of the regional directors. There are only about four others and I presume they will be compensated by being appointed to take part in conducting the census. We will have the whole hierarchy in the area participating.

I am not questioning the ability of these people because they all have proven ability. All I am questioning is how you can obtain impartiality when you have people going around taking the census and politicking at the same time. Goodness knows, they are no different from us. We do not visit a dozen or two dozen homes without somebody inquiring about the situation in relation to the price of wheat or whatever the matter may happen to be.

These people will be politicking more than they will be taking the census. I say it is damned irresponsible of the government to try to conduct the census through the use of a political party machine. I agree entirely with the member for York-Scarborough that this is irresponsible. I do not think there could be anything more irresponsible than to use a political machine for this job. I would much rather have civil servants do the job. However, I think there are enough capable people who are sufficiently impartial that they would have no reason to divulge or to use the information obtained through this form. There are many people in my area who are impartial, even, surprisingly and unfortunately, with regard to politics. They are responsible people and they would be in a position to conduct the census. I am thinking of teachers who will not be engaged after the end of June, university students and other people who are unemployed.

Mr. Charlton:

They are not unemployed.

Mr. Peters:

That is perhaps true. I stand corrected. They are not unemployed but they are not working at their normal jobs and are available to do this type of work. Many of the questions asked are very technical and complicated and teachers would probably have more success in having them answered than the plain ordinary politicians who will be conducting this survey in the ridings of Timiskaming and Timmins. If we are to be expected to permit these things to be done, then we are going to have to be given some assurance that there will be impartiality.

How many of my farmers are going to be asked a lot of pertinent questions about their farming operations? How many of them are going to like it if they know a political candidate is going to see all these figures and is going to know how they stand in relation to their business? We do not know, and it is just an assumption that the census is going to be completed as it has been completed in the past. I am strongly advocating, Mr. Chairman, that not only the people of Timiskaming but the people of Canada take a very close look at this matter before they answer any of these questions that are of a technical nature which have a bearing on their business or occupation. These answers could be used and will be used against them or for them, or at least if any political candidate wishes to use them they will be used because the answers will be observed by a political candidate.

I believe this government should be asked these questions which I put to this minister of the government through you, Mr. Chairman. Will you publish all this information? Will you take the names of the people and publish the information on a riding basis so that I can see what John Smith owns or how many cows John Smith has? Will you publish this so everyone can see this information? If you answer that you will not, then I suggest you have no right, in all decency, to allow this information to be seen and to be examined by people who are dedicated to a political party. I do not believe this is an unreasonable stand. I think we have a right to some impartiality in the commissioners. We are well aware of the fact that at the bottom level, that is the level at which the information is secured, there will be people who are interested in politics. I have no objection to that. However, I have great objection, Mr. Chairman, to this being done by those people who are in a position to use this material for political purposes.

I believe the Canadian people, and certainly the newspapers of this country, should be violently upset about this. The newspapers should request some type of protection for the Canadian people. Some of this information

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does not even appear in income tax forms. If it is going to be asked for, then the government will have to respect the secrecy. There should be an assurance given to the people that the government is not going to secure this information through the people it has appointed. I have suggested that the four commissioners appointed in my area are all political people, people who are not only conscious of politics-as we wish everybody to be -but are actively engaged in working with one political party. They have been appointed and are being paid as political patronage. This is wrong. I do not believe this situation is conducive to the judicious handling of the census and will not result in the full and reasonable disclosure of the business of each and every one of the Canadian people.

If there is to be impartiality, then I am sure the minister will get up and say he is sorry, that he did not go around and collect these people, but that the national organizer of his party did. He will say he disagrees with this practice and it should not be part of the political campaign for the next election, as it so obviously is. If the minister believes in obtaining these figures in an impartial manner, then I am sure he is going to stand up and say he disagrees with the appointment of these people if it can be proved that these facts are true.

Mr. Hees:

I think we have just heard one of the most irresponsible statements heard in this chamber for a long time. This is the kind of speech you expect to hear in a place other than the parliament of Canada. I am rather shocked that the hon. member should have delivered such a speech. According to the hon. gentleman, you cannot trust anybody in his riding but him.

The people who have been chosen to carry out this most important task of taking the census are very highly respected people in all parts of the country, otherwise they would not have been chosen. They have been chosen on the basis, first of all of a good education; professional or business experience in a supervisory capacity; knowledge of the district; tact; good judgment and ability to deal with the people.

The hon. member has spoken about the matter of secrecy. If we can believe what he says, the information that these census takers have been gathering will be used only for their own information, for their own, personal gain. This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard, and I have heard quite a few. This matter of secrecy is dealt with in the Statistics Act. I should like to quote from section 15 of that act, as follows:

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No individual return and no part of an individual return made, and no answer to any question put, for the purposes of this act, shall,... be published ...

It has been mentioned, too, that the census taker takes an oath of secrecy. An oath of secrecy is a very serious matter. It is not something people take lightly. The people who have been chosen are serious and respectable people, and when they take an oath of secrecy they are doing so in a very serious way.

I should like to mention the penalties that are imposed on any of those who are census takers and who break these regulations so far as secrecy is concerned. The penalties are outlined in section 34 of the Statistics Act as follows:

Every person employed in the execution of any duty under this act or any regulation who,

(a) after having taken the prescribed oath, deserts from his duty, or wilfully makes any false declaration, statement or return touching any such matter;

(b) in the pretended performance of his duties thereunder, obtains or seeks to obtain information that he is not duly authorized to obtain; or

(c) fails to keep inviolate the secrecy of the information gathered or entered on the schedules and forms, and who, except as allowed by this act and the regulations, divulges the contents of any schedule or form filled in, in pursuance of this act or any regulation, or any information furnished in pursuance of this act or any regulation; is guilty of an offence and is liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding three hundred dollars, or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or to both fine and imprisonment.

I think I have outlined very clearly the qualifications of these people. I think I have made it clear that they have been chosen with great care. They are very highly respected people in their communities. They are given a very strict code of ethics to guide them in the performance of their duty. If any of them should not perform that duty properly, there are penalties prescribed. As I say, they are all required to take an oath of secrecy. People of the calibre of those who have been chosen to carry out this important task take an oath of secrecy as a serious matter.

I do not believe I have to deal with this matter any further, Mr. Chairman. I think the remarks of the hon. member were in extremely poor taste. I think the hon. member is casting a reflection, in a completely unjustified way, on the very fine people across this country who are going to be carrying out a very important task indeed. I can assure the hon. member and the people of Canada that in my view this census will be taken well and none of the things which dwell in his imagination will take place.

If there is any instance of anything of this kind taking place, there are very definite

rules, regulations and penalties prescribed for them. I very much hope that none of these penalties will be needed. I do not think they will.

I hope we will not again hear this kind of speech from the hon. member or any other hon. member. The hon. member's remarks were derogatory and unfair to those people who are chosen to carry out such an important task in the future.

Mr. Peters:

Mr. Chairman, I wish to make it very clear that I have no reason to cast any aspersions on any of these people.

Then don't do it.

Mr. Ricard:

Shut up then.

Mr. Peters:

If the aspersion is that they belong to a political party and are very actively engaged in that political party, then I make it.

Mr. McGee:

You made a specific allegation that these people will break their oath. The record will show that.

Mr. Peters:

I certainly make no allegation that they will break their oath.

Mr. Hees:

You did.

Mr. Peters:

I said they would use this information and obviously they will. They will have to use it.

Oh, oh.

Mr. Peters:

Let us not split hairs, Mr. Chairman. Let us make it really clear. I am not saying they are going to assemble all this information and use it as a report, or anything of that nature.

This is exactly what I am saying, that through this they are going to gain knowledge of certain things that many people would not tell them under other circumstances. If I am making any allegation, it is against the political party's organization that will set up this type of census machine.

My allegation is not against these people. I know many of them. I agree entirely with the minister that they are highly qualified, very capable people and they have integrity. I know all the people I mentioned in my riding and I have great respect for their ability. I also know that the information they get will be of some assistance to them, as it would be to anybody else, as even the published section of this document will be of value to each and every hon. member of this committee who takes the trouble to read the census in its general form.

I want to make it very clear that I do not cast aspersions on these people, but only on the system of appointment which allows

only one political party to be chosen in an area, and because this is the criterion of choice in that particular area.

Mr. Hodgson:

It is probably because nobody in the C.C.F. qualifies.

Mr. Peters:

I do not suggest that supporters of the C.C.F. be chosen either. I think there are many people who could be chosen. I have outlined one category of people who could be chosen for this work, which would not result in this type of action.

On previous occasions when the census was taken in my area, this was done. I very seldom, if ever, have to give credit to the Liberal party for being politically impartial; but so far as I know, this was done in the last census.