Oh, oh.

Mr. Ricard:

You can say that again.

Mr. Peters:

This was done in the last census in my particular area. I know several of the people who were closely concerned with it, I do not know their political backgrounds, and I do not think this was the reason it was done. In spite of the assurance the minister has given, I still think some consideration should be given to this matter, and this census should not be one of the government's political patronage machines. This government has an excellent record of disposing of patronage. It has disposed of political patronage in many, many fields-I say this in all fairness-in which people previously enjoyed political patronage. I think this government is hurting itself as well as the operation of this census taking in pointing out to all the people across the country that political patronage is the basis upon which appointments are being made on this occasion.

Mr. McGee:

Mr. Chairman, I wish to say a few words, just to clear the record, on the point the hon. member raised. The hon. member made specific allegations concerning certain persons in his district who have been appointed to these posts. I suggest to the hon. member-and perhaps some hon. members in this committee can give me guidance in this-that if he made that type of statement against these people outside the house, it would be libelous.

The minister read the specific terms of the oath, and the hon. member alleged that these people would take certain action with the information they obtained, which would be completely contrary to that oath. The hon. member has indulged in character assassination of individuals in his constituency and census takers across this country.

Mr. Peters:

Mr. Chairman, in reply to the remarks of the hon. member, I note that this

Supply-Trade and Commerce kind of statement was made two or three days ago in this chamber by the same hon. member with probably no greater justification than today. I am quite happy to await the result of the record of the discussion today to ascertain what the situation is.

Mr. Herridge:

Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a few words. I want to support a statement made by the hon. member for Timis-kaming. From experience in my own constituency I can say that in the appointment of census commissioners during the last election by that government there were members of two different political parties. Also, members of all parties were appointed, so far as I can recollect, as census enumerators. I think they were quite fair in that respect.

We have discovered the reason why no C.C.F. members have been appointed. The hon. member for the Ontario riding of Victoria frankly said that the government does not think they are qualified. I do not know whether the same applies to the Liberals. We can say definitely that the government does not think any of the C.C.F. party in Canada qualify to act as census commissioners. We had that fact established from the words of the hon. member.

Mr. Hodgson:

I did not say any such thing. I did not mention the government, or any government.

Mr. Herridge:

You said "we".

Mr. Hees:

Mr. Chairman, if I may clear up this matter, as I heard it the hon. member for the Ontario riding of Victoria, said, "Probably no C.C.F. qualify".

Mr. Herridge:

No, he said "we".

Mr. Hodgson:

I did not; I said "probably".

Mr. Herridge:

I may have misheard, Mr. Chairman. However, in my constituency the census commissioners are all Conservatives, and they are excellent people; I know them all. But my point was this. First of all we have among Conservatives-who have brought this to my attention as well as others-and among members of other parties, persons who are capable, qualified and who could very well do with this $1,200 for six week's work.

This is our argument. It is not whether they should be Conservative, or what their politics should be. For instance, in my constituency two of the gentlemen appointed- they are excellent persons; I know them well; they are highly respected-are members of one of the most successful legal firms in the district. But there are, shall I say qualified and competent Conservatives who would just love to have the opportunity to supplement

Supply-Trade and Commerce their income, which in many cases is very small at the present time, by $1,200 for six week's work.

As the hon. member for Timiskaming said, the government can be given credit in many quarters for its opposition to the practice of patronage. The former minister of public works was an excellent example. One knows the pressure which is exerted. We are all human, and after a party has been out of power for 20 years it is quite human to get your own friends into these positions where possible.

Under normal circumstances this would possibly not draw so much criticism, but under the present circumstances, when there are people who need this extra bit of work both as census commissioners and census enumerators, I say we have to look at it as Canadians and not as partisans.

My concluding words are that I do hope the census commissioners will be instructed to appoint as enumerators capable, competent persons, regardless of politics, who need this extra income during these very difficult times.

Mr. Thomas:

I think this is an opportune time for the Minister of Trade and Commerce to assure the members of this committee and thus the people of Canada that the information to be gathered during the course of the census will not and cannot be used for the purpose of computing income tax. There have been some fears expressed along those lines by the people in my area and I believe that any assurance which can be given by the minister and by the government, and strongly emphasized throughout this country, would have the effect of reassuring the people when the census enumerators come around to gather information.

Mr. Hees:

I am glad to assure the hon. member and other members of this committee that the information deriving from the taking of the census cannot be used for income tax purposes or for the enforcement of any law or bylaw. This information is strictly for use of the dominion bureau of statistics.

Mr. Pickersgill:

I have one question to ask. Is it not true that recourse is had to this information for the purpose of ascertaining the date of birth for the purpose of old age pension payments, for example, if no other means is available?

Mr. Hees:

I am advised that individuals can have access to the record of their birth date, but nobody else.

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

I think the minister will not mind my correcting him by saying that where an individual applies, say,

for an old age pension and there is some dispute as to age, the old age security division of the Department of National Health and Welfare exercises the right which it has under the statute, on assigned authority, to examine the records of the bureau for the purpose of obtaining information as to the age of the applicant.

Mr. Hees:

I think that is, in effect, what I said.

Mr. Martin (Essex East):

The minister must not resent my helping him.

Mr. Hees:

I always welcome help from the hon. member for Essex East. Information as to a person's own birth date can be given to him or to somebody else on his signature.