June 28, 1965

NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles:

Would the hon. Member permit another question. Is the hon. Member saying that if the Minister will not do what we want him to do, therefore we should not ask him to do it?

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SC

Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson

Social Credit

Mr. Olson:

No, Mr. Speaker, I am not saying that at all. The hon. Member for Winnipeg North Centre knows very well that if his amendment is carried, as we are now on third reading we will go back to the committee stage, where he will then sit helpless and unable to take further action.

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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles:

The Minister will have to take the action.

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SC

Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson

Social Credit

Mr. Olson:

He now admits that the Minister will have to move the motion. Therefore it seems to me that the Minister ought to indicate to the House whether he is prepared to move such a motion. Surely it would not make a great deal of difference if we went through all these motions, because we would then arrive at a point where there was complete stalemate, where no further action could be taken.

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CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barneti:

Could I ask the hon. Member a question?

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SC

Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson

Social Credit

Mr. Olson:

Well, Mr. Speaker, this seems to be developing into a sort of quiz contest.

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CCF

Thomas Speakman Barnett

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. Barneii:

I am wondering whether the hon. Member is not concerned that if the Minister did what he is suggesting he would not be exercising undue influence on the vote of Members of the House?

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SC

Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson

Social Credit

Mr. Olson:

I suggest that each Member who rises in his place ought to be attempting to influence other Members; that is not an unusual thing for him to do. The hon. Member for Winnipeg North Centre pointed out in his speech on Friday that he is trying to do indirectly what he cannot do directly.

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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles:

What is wrong with that?

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SC

Horace Andrew (Bud) Olson

Social Credit

Mr. Olson:

to the Income Tax Act which were first introduced during the budget speech.

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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

Could I ask the hon. Member a question? Does he not remember last year when the Government introduced this very matter in a separate resolution in the name of the Prime Minister? Does he not remember that we assumed that this was because the Minister of Finance could not swallow it last year?

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SC
SC

Guy Marcoux

Social Credit

Mr. Guy Marcoux (Quebec-Montmorency):

Mr. Speaker, without being skilled in procedure, I wish to point out very briefly that it seems that the motion now before us is degenerating into a battle of procedural experts, and this I am not. However, it is my opinion that the procedure adopted by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Gordon) in linking his proposal to other measures is nothing but a move liable to mix up members of the house by having them pass two things at once, while perhaps they would have liked to pass one and reject the other. I know that some members on the government side have already objected publicly in this house to the favoured treatment shown Time and Reader's Digest. If these members changed their minds today, which I do not know, it may be that the Minister himself gave additional explanations. He may even, in caucus or elsewhere, have managed to convince the members on the government side; but he has not convinced all the members, at least not some of the opposition, and that is why I believe some of us shall have to vote against the government, that is for the amendment proposed by the New Democratic Party.

If magazines are not able, on their own, to find readers in Canada, it is because they do not have the required qualities. Why then

Income Tax Act

favour them through special legislation, and that to the detriment of Canadian newspapers?

On the other hand, if the publishers of these magazines have further arguments to bring forward, let them do so before the committee. However, as things stand now, we are totally unable to vote in favour of one measure and against another. As the two proposals cannot be separated, we shall support the proposed amendment of the hon. Member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles).

As regards the amendment being out of order, the decision rests with Mr. Speaker. If he so decides, we must submit to his ruling. If he decides that the amendment is in order, we must then vote and possibly indicate to the Minister of Finance that the house wishes him to change his stand. As a matter of fact, I believe that the statements against clause 4 have been so numerous that the Minister should have at least changed his mind or indicated to the house his willingness to re-examine the problem.

On the contrary the minister has always behaved in the house as if he were connected with the owners of those magazines, and even so, but I am not sure, he could always unburden his heart by telling those companies: "I had made a proposal to you, but the house has decided otherwise. Since we are in a democratic country, we must therefore bow to the house's decision."

This is what we are hoping on the part of the minister and even if it were only to express our views concerning this amendment, I think that part of the members of our group will support the amendment of the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.

[DOT] (4:50 p.m.)

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LIB

Herman Maxwell Batten (Deputy Chair of Committees of the Whole)

Liberal

The Acting Speaker (Mr. Batten):

Is the

House ready for the question?

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NDP

Douglas Mason Fisher

New Democratic Party

Mr. Fisher:

Mr. Speaker, I wonder whether you would consider asking the House to give the Minister of Finance unanimous permission to answer a few of the questions which have been asked, particularly those in respect of the matter of confidence.

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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

In point of fact, Mr. Speaker, the Minister does not require any leave. This is an amendment, and he would not be closing the debate in the event he spoke.

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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles:

He spoke on Friday about three minutes.

June 28. 1965

Income Tax Act

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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Diefenbaker:

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, apparently he has already spoken on the amendment and I was unaware of that fact.

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NDP

Stanley Howard Knowles (N.D.P. House Leader; Whip of the N.D.P.)

New Democratic Party

Mr. Knowles:

Perhaps he will ask the Leader of the Opposition some questions during his speech.

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PC

John George Diefenbaker (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Right Hon. J. G. Diefenbaker (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, certainly the position is a most interesting one. When I listened to the hon. Member for Medicine Hat I was touched by the depth and sincerity of his appeal, as I am sure the Government must have been. Often in the past whenever the Government found itself in difficulty one could be assured that that hon. gentleman would do everything he could to preserve it.

His solicitation over the rules at the moment causes me to wonder whether this is a personal solicitation. He finds himself in a very desperate position, because his Leader spoke on Friday and made very clear the attitude his Party would take. I wish to read a portion of the remarks of the hon. Member for Red Deer, as follows:

-certainly an issue as important as the matter of foreign publications is one for which the fullest opportunity for debate and discussion should be provided. I can well understand that there are many Members of the Opposition parties and, if the truth were known, many Members on the Government side of the House as well, who are not satisfied with how this matter has been presented in the omnibus bill before us. I would agree with the mover of the amendment that there has not been an opportunity for Members of the House to express their opinions specifically on this issue and X believe it would be a good idea to refer the bill back to the Committee of the Whole House.

You will have noticed, Sir, that he had none of the fears that fill the heart of the hon. Member for Medicine Hat. I must say that in the years I have been here I have never heard a more touching appeal than that uttered by the hon. gentleman. It has not been very effective. The Government and the Minister are adamant. Oh, what hardness of the soul is apparent here on the part of the Government. So often in the past Members of the Government have been moved to compassion as they listened to the hon. Member doing his part to keep the Government out of difficulty. While the Minister cannot speak, there must be others who, with a lifeline like this thrown out by the hon. Member, could speak. Imagine his position; think of the solicitude of the hon. Member for Medicine Hat in his appeal for something to save the Government.

The hon. Member for Medicine Hat has given us an unequalled example of self-swallowing. I have never seen such an example in all the years I have been here. We know there is a position in any circus for a sword swallower, but the hon. Member is swallowing himself in his desire to help the Government. There are going to be vacancies in the Senate shortly, and there exists one now in respect of Alberta. I would hope that the Government, with that vacancy available, will not allow the day to pass without providing at least some recompense for such an attitude which, as I say, was so deeply touching.

The hon. Member's leader expressed a different view, but this is not the first time this has happened. I recall very well the circumstances of February, 1963, when the hon. Member for Red Deer spoke with such eloquence from about 20 minutes to 6 until six o'clock indicating that he was going to support the Government of that day.

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June 28, 1965