Mr. Lewis:

Stop oh, oh-ing. We always have supported the idea of allocating time, and you know it, despite these silly catcalls. It makes sense to me to allot time. We will agree to that, but not to sit to midnight tonight.

Mr. Pennell:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Ontario has gone a long way with us on this side of the house, and I ask him to take one more step and agree to follow through with the suggestion of the hon. member for York South.

Mr. Starr:

No, Mr. Chairman, I do not think that suggestion makes any sense at all. I am suggesting that we sit an hour and 45 minutes tonight. We sat until after eleven o'clock yesterday to complete the estimates of one department. I am suggesting that we sit an hour and 45 minutes tonight and complete interim supply for all departments.

We talk about reforming the Senate, and in the same breath say that one hour is enough time for them to consider supplementary estimates and interim supply for two months, when we have spent 10 or 11 days here considering the supplementary estimates. I do not think that is fair to the Senate. No wonder people look at the Senate and say it should be reformed. Let us give them an opportunity to discuss these matters all afternoon. We should give them an opportunity for fair discussion. Then we could have royal assent at six o'clock, or whatever the time is.

Mr. Peters:

Ten o'clock, Mr. Chairman.

Order, please. The Chair appreciates all the advice given from both sides of the house, and remains as confused as it was originally.

Mr. Peters:

Ten o'clock, Mr. Chairman.

Is it the

desire of the committee that the Chair not see the clock for the time being?

Supply-A griculture

Mr. Pennell:

May we at least finish agriculture?

Mr. Starr:

We will carry agriculture.

Mr. Peters:

Ten o'clock, Mr. Chairman.

Order, please. The hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre.

Mr. Knowles:

Mr. Chairman, now that the storm has subsided a bit, could we make one more try to finish agriculture tonight?

Mr. Starr:

We will carry it now.

Shall vote 5c carry?

Carried.

Mr. Latulippe:

Mr. Chairman, I shall be very brief, because I do not wish to delay the passage of the estimates of that department.

I should like to join with all other members who stated that agriculture was in a state of stagnation. It is undeniably so, like many other sectors of our economy. Small industries, especially, are in a bad way, as well as small farms and almost every sector of our economy. Therefore, that means that our economy is unbalanced. Small farms are on their way out. As a matter of fact, 70 per cent of the farmers of my riding have left their farm, and every day, others are doing the same.

I feel that premiums on cheese and milk at least should be maintained and that grants to agriculture should be increased, if possible.

Mr. Chairman, agriculture is the foundation of society; it permits the citizens to live because it provides food which is used to feed them. Without agriculture, Mr. Chairman, we would not be here tonight. Agriculture is an essential factor, indeed the number one factor of society. Agriculture is absolutely necessary to the life of human beings. Therefore, we must at least have the courage to protect it and to give it everything it needs. We might be justified in sacrificing certain sectors of the economy to give a greater share to agriculture, so that the farms still in existence could further develop and spare us the sight of an agriculture heading for disaster. In fact, our whole economy is heading for disaster.

It is our responsibility to do everything in our power to assist our agriculture because it

March 26, 1968

Supply-Agriculture

is the most essential field for the human being. Without it, the human being, the family could not live. Let us continue at least to do something to assist our agriculture instead of letting it die.

I could go on talking about agriculture but I do not want to delay the passing of these estimates. Mr. Chairman, I shall limit myself to those few remarks.

I should like to ask once again all the hon. members, and especially the hon. Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Greene) to take under advisement the problems of agriculture, with a view to solving at least a few of them.

It is not by lending money at an increasingly high rate of interest, as was pointed out this afternoon, that farmers will be helped, because they are no longer able to pay such rates. They are sick and tired of being asked to pay rates of interest they can no longer afford. They are asked to make debts at a rate of 15 per cent, but they can no longer take it. They are already too deep in debt, as several members have pointed out. The farmers' debts are incommensurate compared to their means to pay them.

With regard to farm loans, several farmers prefer to borrow from the federal government because they can obtain higher loans. Indeed, more can be had in Ottawa, but the rate of interest is higher than on provincial loans. A reasonable rate of interest should be maintained, since agriculture is the very basis which enables society to live. And so, every attempt should be made to relieve the farmers, by offering them a decent interest rate.

[DOT] (10:20 p.m.)

This completes the supplementary estimates of the Department of Agriculture. The committee will now consider the supplementary estimates of the Post Office Department.