February 19, 1990

LIB

M. Douglas Young

Liberal

Mr. Young (Gloucester):

I just heard someone say that it did well in Chambly. I cannot wait for the new member of the New Democratic Party to come into the House. What is going to happen-and most people are speculating on it now-is that we will have another leadership campaign in the NDP in 18 months. That is something to look forward to. It will be a lot more entertaining than the last one.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Lynn Hunter

New Democratic Party

Ms. Hunter:

We are very pleased with the leader we have, just like the Liberal Party.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

M. Douglas Young

Liberal

Mr. Young (Gloucester):

Going back to the question put by the hon. member, one of the reasons we are not prepared to stall the legislation on the registered retirement savings plan is that Liberals support registered retirement savings plans. I want to make that very clear. I am very proud to support registered retirement savings plans.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Lynn Hunter

New Democratic Party

Ms. Hunter:

Especially if they benefit the rich.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

M. Douglas Young

Liberal

Mr. Young (Gloucester):

We are suggesting that there are some problems with this legislation, and we want to deal with it in committee where we can move amendments and make suggestions. The NDP obviously does not like registered retirement savings plans.

That is its their problem. If they are against people being able to save for their old age, that is up to them.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Lynn Hunter

New Democratic Party

Ms. Hunter:

We didn't say that.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

M. Douglas Young

Liberal

Mr. Young (Gloucester):

If they are opposed to RRSPs, they should say that. What we are saying is that we support registered retirement savings plans.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Lynn Hunter

New Democratic Party

Ms. Hunter:

I rise on a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I think the hon. member should speak for his own party rather than our party. I think we can speak very well for ourselves.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

M. Douglas Young

Liberal

Mr. Young (Gloucester):

With respect to the RRSPs we want to go on record as supporting RRSPs. We want to make sure they are fair and equitable, and we want to make sure we bring forward constructive amendments in committee.

With respect to the GST I want to say that one of the things we will never do in committee or in this House is

Government Orders

send surrogates to do the dirty work. That is what has been happening in the finance committee. The member of the finance committee who is the supposed finance critic for the New Democratic Party has not been part of it. The members for Esquimalt-Juan de Fuca and Nickel Belt have shown up in the finance committee to play their silly games, which they are very good at.

I respect my hon. colleague from Saskatchewan who is the finance critic and my hon. colleague who was a very strong contender in the leadership campaign for the NDP. They appear on a regular basis when we are doing business in the finance committee. They are two gentlemen who know how to present their party's point of view and do it appropriately, but what we have been exposed to is the absolute stupidity of a spectacle of two members, one of whom had never been to the finance committee before, coming in and playing silly games.

If members of the NDP are interested in playing silly games with registered retirement savings plans, that is up to them. If they do not want people to speak in the finance committee and be able to present testimony, that is up to them.

One thing for sure is that we will oppose the goods and services tax as we have since last August while the NDP was going back and forth across the country trying to find a leader. The alternative, and I will close on this, is to make sure that we do not fall into the government's trap. What Canadians are saying is no to the GST, not yes to something else still unheard of. Better the devil you know, which is the existing federal sales tax.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
?

Some hon. members:

Oh, oh!

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

M. Douglas Young

Liberal

Mr. Young (Gloucester):

Oh, yes, Mr. Speaker, because if the New Democrats want to scrap both the federal sales tax and the GST, they would put another $18 billion onto the deficit. They probably do not know that that is what would be the result, but that is what they would be suggesting.

What over 600,000 Canadians who signed petitions that we have presented to the Clerk of this House have said, is,"no", to the GST. They have not said that they would like to take up the NDP's alternative because the NDP'S alternative is unthinkable.

February 19, 1990

Government Orders

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Brian L. Gardiner

New Democratic Party

Mr. Brian L. Gardiner (Prince George-Bulkley Valley):

Mr. Speaker, it is a pleasure to rise today to speak on Bill C-52. Canadians probably shudder every time the government and the minister bring in a bill that is usually entitled, "an act to amend the Income Tax Act and related acts".

We know they shudder because we either get legislation that is going to ensure that middle class Canadians are taxed more or, as in this particular case, legislation to amend the Income Tax Act that is going to continue to protect their wealthy friends.

I think in the debate we have had on the grief and suffering tax, and now this debate on RRSP legislation, that it is very interesting to note the role of the Liberal party, as we just heard in the exchange with the Liberal member, in changing our Canadian tax structure. It is interesting to see the Liberals' role and compliance and their unholy alliance with the Conservatives. It is passing strange to see that kind of co-operation from the Liberal Party.

The Liberals have some honourable history. But this alliance that they now have with their friends in the Conservative party, protecting the rich and the wealthy, as they are doing with RRSP legislation, will make Canadians question what the Liberal party is trying to present in this House. When we ask the Liberals about their alternatives, they say they are not sure.

The Liberals then arrogantly preach to us about how we have to debate in committee and in the House and pay attention to all of the debating rules. Canadians are starting to see through that charade. It is a Liberal charade that is really evident in the debate on the goods and services tax.

Sometimes people get a little overconfident when their standing in the they polls go up. They tend to think it will be a nice, easy walk into office. I wonder if the Liberals are beginning to think that. My hon. friend, one of the Cabinet ministers is nodding. He thinks that way. I think the Liberals would probably be dumb enough to do that.

I think the point was well made at a convention I attended in British Columbia. We are going to fight the Conservatives all the way on the goods and services tax. That is our job. The Queen asks us to do that. She wants to be here to fight that unfair tax and to present

alternatives like we have done, unlike, as I mentioned, the Liberal party. We are going to continue doing that.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
PC

Robert Nesbitt Horner

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Horner:

What are your alternatives?

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Brian L. Gardiner

New Democratic Party

Mr. Gardiner:

The member opposite wants to know what our alternatives are. We will send some extra copies over so he can circulate them to the seven or so Conservatives that are here. If we called a vote now, we would probably win it. Let us see if they have the courage to adopt those alternatives and replace the goods and services tax.

Let me say what will happen to them if they are successful in bringing in the tax. The deal is, if you do get to bring in the goods and services tax in about 10 months time, you lose the next election. I hate talking about politics in the House, as I have said, but when we are out knocking on doors and our supporters are out canvassing undoubtedly we will be talking about the GST-

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Lyle Stuart Kristiansen

New Democratic Party

Mr. Kristiansen:

Not politics.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
NDP

Brian L. Gardiner

New Democratic Party

Mr. Gardiner:

Not politics. This is not politics. We are talking about the GST. When the Conservatives come calling I think Canadians should ask for their money back. When you have a lousy product you get your money back. Even the president of The Bay goes on TV now to say he will give your money back, no questions asked. So when the Tory canvassers and telephoners come by in the next election campaign, ask for your money back. That is what Canadians should do.

What is the purpose of the legislation? It is an attempt by the Conservatives to really restructure our tax system in this country and to protect their friends. Bill C-52 is such legislation.

Of course, we are all getting calls now from members of the pubic and the media asking what is going to be in the budget tomorrow. What is the speculation about what is going to happen. The Minister of Finance has been on the road talking about how tough times are. He says that we are going to have to cut back and it will really hurt. The minister says the Conservatives do not like being unpopular but it is their mandate and they must take these steps.

I think it was about this time during the last budget when word started to get out that the budget was out all over the place. But assuming that the budget is not out all over the news while we are speaking here, the government is bringing in legislation that is going to

February 19, 1990

Government Orders

expand the amount wealthy Canadians can contribute to RRSPs.

The Liberals are hurting dramatically over their lack of opposition to the GST and are beginning to realize that Canadians now recognize that they are playing a shell game with their opposition. The Liberals try to play a few games by saying the NDP are against RRSPs and who knows what else they are going to do. That is not our position.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

Dennis Joseph Mills

Liberal

Mr. Mills:

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You will have to bear with me for a second because this is the first time that I have ever stood in this House on a point of order and you may rule me out of order. But I have been listening to the NDP for the last three hours in here and at a finance committee meeting.

They keep mentioning that we do not have alternatives on this side of the House. I want to be on the record that that is not the case and the New Democrats know it because I personally sent all the NDP members in the last two weeks a copy of one proposal in this party called the single tax. So I think that the record should stand corrected. It is one of many that are being worked on.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
?

Léonard-David Sweezey Tremblay

The Acting Speaker (Mr. TVemblay (Quebec Est)):

The

hon. member from Prince George has the floor.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
PC

Thomas Hockin (Minister of State (Small Businesses and Tourism))

Progressive Conservative

Mr. Hockin:

On a point of order. I do not believe that it was a point of order but I would like to know whether or not the single tax is party policy.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink
LIB

Dennis Joseph Mills

Liberal

Mr. Mills:

Mr. Speaker, I started off by saying that this is not party policy but we are working on many ideas. Members should not say that we as Liberals are not working on ideas and that we are not proposing alternatives. This is one of many that are being worked on which I presented to the Department of Finance. We have worked on it for nine months and we have yet to have a single response from the Government of Canada on this one idea. I know many of my colleagues have many other ideas, but there has been no response.

Topic:   GOVERNMENT ORDERS
Subtopic:   INCOME TAX ACT
Sub-subtopic:   MEASURE TO AMEND
Permalink

February 19, 1990