Mr. Nicholson:

I am sure the minister will be encouraged by the fact that all of those members taking part in the discussions are pleased to find and would like to see more money spent by this department in respect of the estimates. I note from the estimates that there has been an increase of over $3 million from the 1956-57 period, which gives the minister something over $27 million for the Indian affairs branch. However, in view of the fact that there are about 150,000 Indians in Canada, this works out at less than $200 per person. I note that as early as 1670, during the reign of Charles II, instructions were given to the governors of the colony to the effect that those Indians who desired to place themselves under British protection should be well received and protected. This appears to have happened 288 years ago and then, 203 years ago, we had our first Indian superintendent appointed. We have had a number of treaties since that time. In 1763,

there was a royal proclamation that no Indian could be dispossessed of his lands without his consent and the consent of the crown. I am glad the minister has made the intent of that proclamation quite clear since he has become the minister.

I also read that back in 1875, as a result of the increase in the cost of living, the annuity was increased from $3 to $5 per head. In view of the fact that this was 75 years ago, and it was then considered that $3 was quite inadequate, it is very hard to understand why it would be considered that $5 is quite adequate now.

I think we must look at the problem which confronts the Indian people of Canada from coast to coast. When you consider that in the last two or three years the taxpayers of Canada have spent $200 million on building the mid-Canada line across northern Canada, where the Indians can see with their own eyes the very extravagant type of quarters which must be provided for the people who go up there for a short period, the comparison is quite striking between such accommodation for those people performing the public service and the sort of quarters with which the Indians are obliged to content themselves.

In the Sandy Bay district of my constituency about a year ago there was an unfortunate fire which took the life of an Indian woman and several of her children. Two of the girls were sent to the hospital and are now going to be handicapped for life as a result of that fire. These are not treaty Indians. The Saskatchewan government is responsible and has spent well over $10,000 on medical and hospital care as a result of this one fire, not to mention the loss of life and the permanent disability of these very nice young girls.

It would appear to me that a country with the resources of Canada could do something more than we have done to date to fulfil those responsibilities which we undertook as long ago as 1670, and I am sure as a result of the comments made this afternoon the minister will be in a stronger position to go to his colleagues in the cabinet and say that the very small change which has been made available to the Indian affairs branch is quite inadequate in view of the extent of the problem.

About 5 per cent of my people are Indians; of course a great many of them are not able to vote, and I think we should also have a look at that particular problem. I believe with 150,000 Indians in Canada we should, if necessary, make a change in the British North America Act so that these people would be able to send their own spokesmen to

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Supply-Citizenship and Immigration parliament. It is going to be very difficult to have elected members come to parliament from a relatively small Indian community and I am sure all hon. members of all parties are anxious to present the claims of Indian people fairly well but, when you have 5 per cent of the people who are Indians, and when they are scattered over such a large area, it is not easy to see that sufficient attention is paid to them and to their problems in parliament. On the other hand, in New Zealand it has been found possible to make provision for the native people of that country to go to their assembly and to express their points of view. In India every consideration is given to minority groups so that the spokesmen of these groups can go to the Lok Sabha, stand up in their places and speak for the people whom they represent.

Mr. Nicholson:

I am expressing my own personal opinion and I believe it would be helpful for some of the outstanding Canadian Indians at some time to be permitted to come to the Canadian parliament, but I am sure it will be difficult in Bonavista-Twillingate for any of the Indian people in that constituency to be represented when the hon. member who presently represents that area has 75 per cent of the vote.

Mr. A. M. Nicholson (Mackenzie):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to direct a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce. On Tuesday of this week he intimated that he hoped to be able to make an announcement soon in connection with an interim payment on the 1956-57 crop which would be as favourable as those announced by his predecessor on January 30 a year ago, amounting to 10 cents a bushel, and on February 2 two years ago. Is he now in a position to make an announcement as to the amount, and when the money will be available to the western farmers?

Mr. Nicholson:

The Prime Minister has given a commitment that someone will be appointed to the other place to represent the Indian people. Since most legislation originates in this chamber, I think we should have a spokesman in this house for the

150,000 Indian people of Canada so they might be able to get a better deal than the hon. member for Bonavista-Twillingate ever conceived of for them while he was minister of this department.

Following the June 10 election I visited several Indian communities in my constituency which I did not have an opportunity to visit before the election. I suggest that this is a good practice to follow, particularly when one's polls are scattered over such a large area. I find that the meetings in Indian communities are most interesting. It is necessary for the visiting speaker to have an interpreter and usually the parish priest is available to serve in this capacity. It is

customary for the speaker to say a sentence or two and then pause while the interpreter translates the words into the language of the local Indians. After one has spoken, it is surprising how many Indian people express valuable ideas, many of which are more useful and constructive than those we have expressed in this chamber. After one has heard the representations made by these people one realizes that if the suggestions could be acted upon we would be doing better than we have been doing in the field of Indian affairs.

At Sandy Bay we have two completely different worlds. There is the Indian community on one side of the water and a large modern power plant with up to date houses for the people who are employed by the Churchill river power company on the other. The Indians there work on construction and are skilful workers. Although these two communities have existed on either side of the water for 25 years the Indian community still has no power. Power there is very cheap and in fact all heating in the community on the other side is provided by electricity and the homes are equipped with electrical stoves and refrigerators. My Indian friends there find it difficult to understand why there is no power in the Indian village when power is so cheap and readily available. It happens that some of the Indians there are treaty Indians and some are metis. When the federal government has been approached about this question it has advised that conditions at Sandy Bay are much better than those which obtain in other Indian communities. The provincial government takes the same attitude that money is not in as short supply at Sandy Bay as it is in many other communities. It appears to me that some interesting experimental work could be done at this location if we could get an agreement between the provincial and federal authorities.

The management of the Churchill river power company has been keenly interested in this problem. An examination of the annual report of the company reveals that since April, 1956, handicraft orders have been placed to a total value of $16,000 which were shipped from the branch central warehouse. I think that is a small amount to produce.

Perhaps I could refer again to India. The handicraft industry plays an important role in the economy of that country and when one considers this I believe one gets an idea of the possibilities of this industry in Canada among our native Indian population. Our Indian people are highly creative. If a special effort were made on the part of provincial and federal authority to co-operate more

extensively we could perhaps send trained people into the various Indian communities to make a real attempt to increase the production of handicrafts.

I am glad to note that some progress has been made in the field of technical education but we are moving slowly. When one considers that we are prepared to spend $60,000 on the training of a young Canadian when he leaves high school to qualify him for service in the air force it would appear that we should be prepared to spend some money in training people in these isolated Indian communities. We should place greater emphasis on technical training for the young people in Indian communities.

At Sandy Bay and at Island Falls in the northern part of my constituency the young Indian lads who have been employed by this company have demonstrated their skill in the use of machinery. They have a genuine aptitude in this direction and I think we should be spending a larger amount of money and we should make available a larger staff to bring technical education to many of these centres.

I recently received a letter from Sturgeon Landing, one of the northern points in my constituency which served to remind me that I have been unable to visit the Indian people in this community for 14 years. As a result of the influx of settlers the native Indian people have been pushed northwards and westwards and this has posed real problems to the native Indian population. At Cumberland House, the oldest settlement in the province of Saskatchewan, both the general population and the school population have increased in recent years but the fishing reserves and trapping do not provide the livelihood they did 200 or even 100 years ago in that area. We must take into account conditions in this changing world. The $5 annuity that was considered adequate in 1875 can scarcely be considered adequate today and the sum of less than $200 for each person under the provisions of the Indian affairs branch is not adequate in view of the other disbursements made by the government of Canada.

Mr. Nicholson:

The minister said he would have some information under this item on the number of applications at the office in New Delhi, India.