Mr. FIELDING.

decided to attempt to bring about a scheme of interprovincial registration. That means that the provinces should have an understanding among themselves that a man having a license to practice in one province should be allowed, on crossing the imaginary boundary line, to practice in the next province. This scheme went on fairly well until the Ontario Medical Council enacted that, before anything of that kind could be done it was necessary that a central examining board should be established in each province. Up to that time some of the provinces had no such examining board. Quebec never had from the very first. This central examining board was necessary according to the Ontario men, in order that the licentiates should receive recognition by the province of Ontario. There was a very strong feeling on the part of the profession in the province of Quebec in favour of bringing this about if possible, and establishing a central examining board in Quebec. The profession in that province went so far as to frame a Bill, which was presented before the local government at Quebec. But during that session of the legislature of Quebec, and when the Bill was about to come up, the heads of the three universities in the province of Quebec-McGill, Laval and Bishop's-appeared and opposed this Bill. They said that they could not allow their charter rights to be disturbed. According to the present usage, and from the time of confederation, it has been customary for the diplomas of these three universities to be accepted by the licensing body of the province of Quebec as sufficient to allow the holder to practice medicine in that province. Having discovered that it was impossible to meet the conditions of the Ontario Medical Council, and considering also that this provincial reciprocity would simply be a kind of understanding among the provinces which might have been destroyed at any moment, and also that it would stand in the way of a measure as general as we should like, thus preventing reciprocity with Great Britain and probably with France, the interprovincial scheme was dropped. Then, at a meeting of the profession in the province of Quebec three years ago, it being found that the scheme proposed was impracticable, the association representing the profession in the whole Dominion passed the following resolution :

Your committee desire to recommend that further steps he taken to ascertain the practicability of further legislation leading to the establishment of a federal qualification which will also place the profession in Canada on an equal footing with that of Great Britain, and that Dr. Roddick be authorized to take the necessary steps in the matter.

On the same occasion another resolution was passed, appointing a strong committee representative of the various provinces to assist and strengthen Dr. Roddick's hands

before the government. With this committee, Sir, I began to look about for a scheme. I consulted the law officers of the Crown, the parliamentary law officers and other legal friends, with a view to getting as much information as possible. I found that there were only two ways in which this parliament could interfere in this matter to gain what we sought. One was to bring about an amendment to the British North America Act. That, you know. Sir, is a large and heavy contract, and probably would never come to anything. An amendment to the British North America Act means that you must have, first or all, the assent of the two Houses of parliament in this country, then of the House of Lords and the House of Commons in Great Britain -and then, after all, the chances are, that when the matter was brought before the Privy Council it would be annulled and destroyed. So, that idea had to be given up. Then, I found-or rather, these legal friends found for me-another way out of the difficulty. Under section 91 of the British North America Act, the Dominion parliament has power to make laws

-for the peace, order and good government of Canada in relation to all matters not coming within the classes of subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the legislature of the provinces.

Under this section, the Canada Medical Act and the Adulteration Act have been worked out since confederation. And I think you will agree with me, Sir, when I can prove, as can easily be done, that a medical man cannot cross the imaginary line between the provinces, cannot cross a river such as the Ottawa, without running the risk ot' being fined and, perhaps, imprisoned when he is atempting to save the lives of citizens of Canada, that the peace, order and good government of Canada are violated.

In order to bring about the change we desire, it will be necessary,, of course, to get the co-operaiton of all the provinces. It would be a mistake, in fact, it would be suicidal, to attempt anything without that co-operation. The autonomy of the provinces must not be disturbed in any way, nor need it be disturbed if the method that I shall propose is pursued. It will be necessary. either before or after the passage of the Bill in this House, for the medical board in each province of Canada to have an amendment made in the Medical Act of the province to the effect that, after the establishment of a Dominion medical council and a Dominion examining board, any one having the qualification which that council and that examining board will give him may go to another province in Canada and ask for admission to practice medicine in that province. Bach medical board will have to have a short enactment tacked on to the present Act in order that this may be carried out. Whether we have a permissive Bill here, a Bill which will anticipate or

precede the local enactment, or whether It shall succeed it, 1 think is a matter of very little consequence. There is one advantage in having it precede the local enactment, and that is, that it hurries up the local boards and the local parliaments in making their enactment. But, of course, it is a disadvantage in that it appears to be forcing the hand of the provinces, which I should be very sorry indeed to do.

Probably it does not occur to you, Mr. Speaker, or to other members of this House that it would be quite competent for this parliament to establish a Dominion medical board. It would be quite competent for the Minister of Militia and Defence to insist that every militia officer under the control of the Dominion government shall be examined before a Dominion examining board: it would he quite competent for the Solicitor General or the Minister of Justice to insist that every penitentiary surgeon shall pass an examination before a Dominion board ; it would be quite competent for the Minister of the Interior to insist that his mounted police, those under his control, shall have a Dominion qualification ; and in every new territory which is established by the Dominion of Canada under the control of this parliament, the same conditions might be exacted. Therefore, Sir, I think it is quite competent for this parliament to establish a Dominion examining board, and to pass a Dominion Act of this character. Of course, men who would have that qualification would, on the strength of that, have no right to practice in the various provinces, where provincial rights exist, and on that account it is too contracted in its character, and I should not advise that anything of the kind should be done.

Now, Sir, I think it can be proved that a Dominion medical council can be established. How is that council to be constituted V That is a very difficult question, and one which has given me more thought than any other. Shall this council be established on the principle of representation by population ? Shall it be established on the principle of the province having the greater number of medical men being represented in proportion on that council ? Worked out on a scheme of representation by population, it would mean a very large and unwieldy board. Ontario has 2,500 medical men ; Prince Edward Island has only 90, so faking Prince Edward Island as a unit, Ontario would be entitled to 28 representatives on this board ; Quebec with its 1,400 doctors would have 15 ; Nova Scotia with its 476 doctors would have 5; New Brunswick with its 243 doctors would have 2 and a fraction ; Manitoba with its 344 doctor's would have 3 ; British Columbia with its 214 doctors would have 2 ; the North-west Territories with their 95 doctors would have one and a fraction.

Now, Sir, would this be fair to the smaller provinces, considering the fact that we are Mr. RODDICK.

not going to disturb the status quo, that the medical boards of the provinces shall exist as they have always, done ? There is no intention to disturb them in any way ; they must exist under any circumstances for the purposes of discipline and taxation ; because the federal medical council could have nothing to do with discipline, that must be left entirely to the provincial boards. Considering the fact that we are not disturbing the provincial boards, do you think it would be necessary for Ontario to have 27 representatives on this board, for Quebec to have 15, for Prince Edward Island to have one, and so on ? I think not. I think a fairer way, under the circumstances, would be for each province to have the same number. That seems odd ; but we know that when the American constitution was drafted, the little state of Rhode Island was given two representatives in the Senate of the United States, and the great state of New York only two, and that system still exists.

I think a scheme would answer every purpose under which there would be three representatives on this council from each province of the Dominion, including the North-'

. west Territories, and making altogether 24. I would propose this method of electing them : The president of each medical council in each province would be ex-officio a member of this council, one would be elected from among the council, and one would be appointed by the Governor General in Council. That would give a representation of three from each province. Of course the question will be asked,/ why have a representative appointed by the Governor General in Council ? I will give you my reasons for making this proposition. This board of 24 with three others to be added, as I will explain in a moment, should become and will become what the British Medical Council is to Great Britain, and what the Council of Hygiene is to France, namely an advisory board to the Dominion government, a board that can be called upon in case of dangerous pestilence or incursion of disease of any kind, to give the best possible advice under the circumstances to the health officers of the Crown, and to the health officers of the various provinces. Of course the best men should be selected, and I think we could trust any government to see to it that politics would not enter into the selection. I am satisfied that every government would feel bound, in recommending these men as their advisers, to select those who were eminent in their profession, men who were perhaps professors in universities, men who would possess special qualifications. Under this scheme of three from each province you have a board of 24. But I am satisfied that three men could do the work which is required as well as 30 men. They are only expected to see that the conditions are carried out which are mentioned in this Bill. They are to see that the standard of education is not lowered, that the examination is at least

as high as it would be in any province of the Dominion of Canada. Three men, who have their local board to fall back upon for advice and counsel will do the work as well as thirty. I think that three will be quite sufficient.

Besides these we require to have three more. A question which met me in working out this scheme was that the homeopaths and those who practice homeopathy in this country have certain rights in all the provinces and that these rights must be respected. On that account I would suggest, and the suggestion did not come directly from me but from the homeopathic body, that three homeopaths be added to this council. In every province in Canada they have rights ; of course these rights must be respected, and I think it would be only fair to give them three representatives. I would have these three representatives elected by the homeopaths themselves by ballot from the whole Dominion, from the Atlantic to the Pacific. Wherever there are homeopaths let them have a vote and be allowed to select their three representatives on this council. They should also, besides that, have the right to examine in certain subjects which especially have to do with the practice of medicine, and they should have the privilege of having examiners. That will make a board of 27.

Mr. FIELDING.

by ' Hansard,' and remains in ' Hansard ' up to the present time. I do not think even the hon. gentleman himself will contend that there is not some doubt at least in that clause itself. He will not contend that it is absolutely sure that the twenty years does not run from the date of the contract. I think the Solicitor General was willing to go that far, and he is the only one, so far as I know, who ever made that admission.

Mr. FIELDING.

showing, as it does, the great interest in the work. To the farmer of the western prairies the question of transportation is to-day probably the largest one before his view, because, the cheapening of grain transportation or carriage from the west to the east must result, in some part, in his participating in the cheapening of that transportation, and with the development of the northern part of Ontario, rich in mineral and timber resources, a great deal of interest centres in the fact that transportation may be cheapened from the west to the seaboard. The question also is of great importance in the province of Ontario and in other provinces in this that we are hoping to build up in the older provinces a large manufacturing trade and if we are to have customers for the manufactured products of these provinces we must after all expect to find them on our western prairies. The people of the older provinces, burdened as they have been for a great many years by raising large sums of money for the construction of railways in the west, and particularly the Canadian Pacific Railway, are anxious to see any plan of transportation adopted that can result in their being able to place manufactured goods in the west at cheaper rates than they can now be placed there. Now, in regard to tfhe question of the policy of past governments a most striking point doubtless is the large expenditure on the canal system, and I presume that I am within the mark when making the statement that $75,000,000, or even more, has been expended on the construction of the St. Lawrence and Welland canal systems, and according to the signs of the times large sums of money are to be expended by this government in still furthering these projects. While we are spending these large sums of money there is something which is withdrawn from the public to-day, and it is the idea of stability on the part of the government because members of the government are from time to time speaking of going farther in this, and of the possibility and chance that the government will take up other plans and projects with the view of ending this transportation question. So long as the government dangle before different sections of the provinces and the Dominion these gigantic projects, there can never be the possibility that the public will be assured that any plan is to be a permanent or lasting one for the future.

I am quite well aware of the fact that political considerations may in the past have weighed in some of these projects, but has the time not arrived when political considerations should be dropped, and even at the risk of offending the Minister of Railways and Canals (Hon. Mr. Blair) and the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte) in this debate, I must say this, and say it ait the outset, that I fear and I think the public believe too, that too much heed is at present being paid to political considerations in the expenditures and in the expected expendi-

tures of vast sums1 of money in this country. We have in all lines of business a guiding star to lead people on and that is the success that others have attained in any particular project or enterprise of a similar kind, and looking to-day at the question of transportation, it must be plainly manifest to the world that the Americans in their route by way of Buffalo and New York by water from different points on the great lakes have seemingly achieved the solution of the transportation question. It is to be regretted that, while we in Canada have spent and are spending- millions of dollars on the St. Lawrence canal system year by year, we see with mortification that less grain is being shipped down this canal system upon which such large sums of money are being spent. Let me say, so far as this government are concerned, that if the St. Lawrence canal system is a failure, comparatively speaking, no blame is to be attached to the present government, because these gentlemen came into power finding a well-defined line of policy on the part of the late administration, and the present administration woidd have been blameable,

I believe, and would have been blamed by the country and by the press, had they not done exactly as they did, finding the work uncompleted and under tender, had they not gone on with the contracts that were then pending and completed the work as the work has been completed to-day. It is true that the government have claimed a great deal of credit in the past for the construction of this St. Lawrence canal system, while, as a matter of fact, they have simply carried on the lines of policy laid down by the late administration and whether it is a failure or success no blame can attach to the present administration, because the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals simply followed out the line of policy formulated by the late government. Last year this question was under discussion ; last year the lion. Minister of Railways and Canals had warning notes thrown out to him not only from this side of the House, but by his own political friends, but despite the warning notes then thrown out to the hon. Minister of Railways and Canals and the hon. Minister of Public Works, because, in their departments occur these great expenditures in this regard. these hon. gentlemen have still kept the public in a vacillating and doubtful frame of mind wondering what possible move is next to be made on the transportation checker board, so to speak, by this administration. While speaking from his place in this House the hon. member from North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton), who is not present to-day, made these remarks : Whether the building of the St. Lawrence canals was a mistake or not, and whether or not a heavy expenditure at Port Colborne is necessary, I think we have gone far enough in that direction until we have more reliable data as to effect of improvements in railways and reductions in cost of transportation by railways in Canada and the United States.

If that word of warning from the hon. member for North Norfolk was timely last year, how much more so is it to-day, in view of the

fact that the government have a great many plans and projects before the public asking for commendation and in due time I have no doubt parliament will be asked to sanction the expenditure not of hundreds of thousands of dollars but of millions. At the outset, I 'think there is a sort of mistaken idea in the minds of the people as to the extent of the trade which is to he assured to the Canadian system of transportation. At first sight it would seem that it is not a question of our reaching out simply for the Canadian trade or reaching out for a large portion of the trade of the United States. A glance at the map will show hon. gentlemen the fact that there is a certain area of the United States export trade which we in Canada may successfully hid for. We may, in Canada, hope, in time, to ensure this to our Canadian facilities and this has been demonstrated for two or three years beyond the possibility of a doubt. In this connection some figures may be interesting, which are compiled from the public reports to show the extent of the trade from certain American ports which we in Canada have a fair means of reaching out for by way of our Canadian schemes of transportation. At the port of New York I find from the figures of 1899 that there were exported no less a quantity than 93,830,352 bushels of grain. At the port of Boston there were exported 28,905,095 bushels of grain, and at the port of Baltimore 56,335,397 bushels. I have not the figures of the other American ports because I think that these are the only exporting points which we may hope to compete with to a certain extent.

Let us look for a moment at the vast trade that is done at the port of Buffalo. In the year 1899, the immense quantity of 153.393,1S4 bushels of grain passed through that port, and in addition to that there was handled at Buffalo, 40.899,928 bushels of grain in flour, or in all nearly 200,000,000 bushels. I have before referred to the superiority of the Buffalo system as shown by the immense trade that port does, compared with the relatively small quantity of grain passing through the St. Lawrence canal system, and which I regret to say is lessening year after year, compared with what is known as the Grand Trunk Railway and Canada Atlantic systems. The trade of Buffalo has largely increased in the last few years, owing to the fact that the railway and the shipping interests have worked hand in hand in modern improvements. There was a time on the great lakes, when a vessel carrying 20,000 or 25.000 bushels of grain was supposed to be of very considerable size, but that day lias gone past, and the grain freighter of the present time is a vessel carrying a quarter million bushels. Last year a vessel was launched at Cleveland, 'with a capacity of carrying 300,000

bushels of grain. A little consideration will show that that class of vessel is the one which has come to stay on the great lakes. These large vessels can be run at a comparatively less cost than the smaller ones, because the crew carried by the large vessels is not very much larger than that of the small vessels, while the expense of the higher class of officers is practically the same on both, i have seen on the lakes between Port Arthur, Chicago and Midland, a rate of live cents a bushel; so that a vessel carrying 300,000 bushels will earu $15,000 in freight, while the smaller vessel carrying 20,000 bushels will only earn the trifling sum of $1,000. It stands to reason that the demand should be for the large vessels, and the large vessels alone. I know that in the debate last year, there was a difference of opinion on that point between the hon. member for Quebec West (Hon. Mr. Ilobell), and the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Tarte). I am not here to decide between these two gentlemen, but in my humble opinion the signs of the times go to show that the hon. member for Quebec West was wrong in his contention. I believe that the time has not yet arrived for what may be termed canal freighters, but the day has certaiuly come for the larger class of vessels on the great lakes.

And, while they have been increasing the size of the vessels on the great lakes, the railways have not been idle by any means. There was a time when the railways between Buffalo and New York ran comparatively small trains, and with cars capable of carrying only GOO bushels; but I am credibly informed that to-day, there are cars on this railway system carrying 1,500 bushels, and locomotives which can each haul thirty of these large cars. A comparison can easily be drawn as to the very great saving which will be effected by the present railway system of doing business as against that of former days. There are many indications that the Buffalo grain trade is likely to increase. One reason is that there is always to be had cheap freight by boat between Buffalo, Duluth and Chicago. By reason of what are known as the coasting regulations, only these large American vessels can ply between Buffalo and Chicago, or any other American port on the great lakes. A Canadian vessel cannot trade between Buffalo and any American port, and so she is restricted to carrying between Buffalo and Port Arthur, or some other Canadian point. The result of that is that these American vessels are able to enter the ore carrying trade, which is now a very considerable factor in the United States, when the heavy grain trade of the spring is over. They leave the grain trade in the spring, and engage in the ore carrying trade during the summer months, and again in the fall they enter the grain carrying business. From time to time they are constructing more boats on the Ameri-Iv.tr. BENNETT.

can side, in view of the guarantee which they have that they will not only be able to engage in the grain trade in the spring and fall, but that they can carry ore during the summer months. There is another factor which militates against the grain carrying trade of Canada, and that is that ocean freight rates have been much cheaper from American ports than they have been from the ports of Montreal, St. John or Halifax. The reason is that there are always to be found a large number of ocean steamers in these American cities plying to European countries. In that respect the Buffalo grain trade has had a decided advantage in the past. The receipts of grain at Buffalo during the past year amounted to 57,000,000 bushels, from Chicago; 50,000,000 bushels from Duluth; 17,000,000 bushels from Milwaukee; 3,500,000 bushels from the Canadian port of Fort William, and the balance of 26,000,000 bushels fx'oiu other points, mainly on Lake Michigan. These figures show that the American people have been able to attract the bulk of the trade of the western states to the port of Buffalo, and not only that, but that they have been able to encroach on the Canadian trade from Port Arthur or Fort William to the extent of 3,500,000 bushels. This certainly should not be the case. With this condition of things staring us in the face, is it not time that we should take some measures to endeavour to cope with the enterprise of the American people, and to direct the current of trade into Canadian channels. We in this country, are to-day, largely relying on the canal system for this trade as the Americans relied on it in the past, but the Americans have changed their principle of doing business, and we can see for ourselves that the canal system is a failure.

Surely the time has arrived when this parliament, before it plunges into an expenditure of millions of dollars more through the government of the day, should adopt some fixed and definite policy, so that for a few years to come we may know where we are at. The grain trade of the west is going through Buffalo to the tune of nearly 200,000,000 bushels per year, while the grain trade at Montreal year after year is lessening. In the year 1898. 38,710,259 bushels of grain passed through the port of Montreal ; in 1899, 30.541,702 bushels passed through ; and in 1900, according to a computation which one must make, as the report of the Montreal Board of Trade does not show exactly what was carried in grain and what was carried in flour, only some 22,000.000 bushels must have passed through. Unfortunately, we are not able to ascertain whether that grain went down the St. Lawrence canal system ; but, from all I can learn, instead of that quantity going down the canal system, less than 10.000.000 bushels actually passed down the St, Lawrence canals. The figures of the Canada At-

lantic show that that line handled some 13,000,000 bushels from Parry Sound to Montreal, which would leave only 9,000,000 bushels to go down by the St. Lawrence canals ; and the facts point to this being the case. While at Prescott and Kingston a large grain-handling trade has been done in past years, it is a regrettable fact that at Prescott no trade at all was done last year, and the trade of Kingston has diminished to a very appreciable extent. We have been attempting to build up the port of Montreal ; yet, after the large expenditure which we have incurred with that object, the truth must dawn on us that year by year, in spite of the deepening of the canal system from 10 feet to 14 feet, the grain trade of that port is very greatly diminishing.

It may be said that there are many reasons why the trade of the port of Montreal has not been built up. I am free to admit that that is so. In discussing this question with marine men and men conversant with the shipping trade, one hears that there is a great shortage of Canadian vessels. There will always be a shortage of Canadian vessels so long as the government continue to play fast and loose with this transportation question. What inducement is there for a man to-day to engage in Canadian shipping ? If he builds a Canadian bottom, he is restricted to the trade between Port Arthur and the port or Montreal, or Georgian Bay ports, whereas if he builds a vessel in the United States, he has not only tli,e grain trade between Buffalo and any point in the northern lakes to reiy upon, but he has during the summer months recourse to the vast ore trade, which is even a more profitable carrying trade than the grain trade. While the government are vacillating in their policy, vessel men hardly know what kind of vessel to build, if they are inclined to build a Canadian craft. They are told that the government intend to have the St. Lawrence canals so constructed as 1 to accommodate vessels going all the way from Port Arthur to Montreal. If you are going to have on that trade vessels with a capacity of 50,000 bushels, these are a class of vessels whicli cannot possibly compete with the larger vessels on the great lakes. In the same breath lion, gentlemen bespeak for use in Canada a class of vessels to carry grain from Port Arthur to Port Col-borne-Ayessels which are very much larger than those which have been projected.

There are some other points in Canada to which we have been attempting to attract trade ; and in this connection I am going to refer to Halifax and St. John. It must be remembered that every one of these plans of transportation that have been projected contemplate the expenditure of hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars. What did we see last year ? The government of Canada had at Halifax a large grain elevator. The construction of that elevator, from all I can learn, had been

demonstrated to be practically a failure ; yet, in the face of that, the Minister of Railways and Canals saw fit in his wisdom, last year, to construct at St. John a large elevator, which, with the docks and wharfs and approaches, has involved an expenditure of half or three-quarters of a million dollars ; and I am sorry to say that one may fairly attribute to the hon. gentleman political I'easons for his action. What happened at that port last year ? The minister had his elevators and canals completed ; he had his railway system established to that point; yet, with that elevator standing there a monument, I will not say to his folly, but to his lack of business judgment, the Minister of Railways and Canals, in order to please the people of St. John, brings to that port, over the Canada Atlantic Railway to Montreal, and from there by the Intercolonial to St. John, 390,000 bushels of grain, to demonstrate that grain could be carried over that system of railways ; and the demonstration meant a loss to the revenue of Canada of $10,000. It is all very well to be patriotic ; it is all very well to build up a trade in the interest of the port of St. John ; but, surely the people of Canada are not to be asked to spend money at this rate simply to prove that the elevator at St. John has an adequate carrying capacity.

Now, looking at the canal system of the Dominion, we find from the experience of the past season, that the largest boat that passed from the upper lakes and went through to Montreal carried 45,000 bushels of grain ; and it is the opinion of practical vessel men to-day that it is utterly impossible to carry at a profit so small a quantity of grain so great a distance. What was the opinion of the hon. Minister of Railways last year on this question ? Speaking in this House, the hon. gentleman said :

We will see that with Montreal properly equipped, there is no reason in the world why we should not he able to offer sufficient inducements to shippers of grain in the west to prefer the St. Lawrence to any other route.

After a number of years, we find that the grain shipments at the port of Montreal have decreased to a most visible extent. Therefore, the opinion of the Minister of Railways last year was, I regret to say, rather a mistaken one. That hon. gentleman considered that one of the most desirable things in our canal system was this, that we would be able to carry through from points on the upper lakes heavy freight to Montreal, and to-day, with the deepening of the canal system, we find that last year the largest vessel that went down carried some 45,000 bushels. I am free to admit that the Welland canal to-day is only 14 feet deep, and that no doubt larger vessels should pass down that canal than those carrying 45,000 bushels. But there is this fact to be borne in mind. The Welland canal system is still water, and freighters

will not take the risk of carrying vessels deeply laden down the St. Lawrence that they would through the still water of the canal. But whether there are 14 feet or not in the' St. Lawrence system, I am informed that experience will prove that even with 14 feet, you can never hope to carry through vessels with much more than 50,000 bushels capacity. If you take vessels with 50,000 bushels from Fort William through to Montreal, you will find that they must of necessity return unloaded. There is no freight for vessels from Montreal to Toronto, or other points, to any appreciable extent. True, you may have freight for 'some of them, but not to any great extent, and the result is that boats are going back up the St. Lawrence system with comparatively little freight, and the more boats there are employed in that service the less quantity of return freight wall there be for each.

It was demonstrated in the past year by the Algoma Central Railway Company, that it will not- pay to send vessels right through from points on the lakes to the old country. They sent some boats over to the old country laden with steel billets, and the result was that these boats carried at a much less sum than paid their expenses, and the company were considerably out on the deal.

I need not go into the question of vessels leaving Fort William, and going clear to the old country. This proposition is so absurd that it does not require to be refuted. If you were to secure vessels capable even of carrying 00,000 bushels from Fort William to Liverpool, you would be brought into competition with the large first-class freighters fit Montreal; and could uot compete against the mixed cargoes and passenger lists on the ocean passenger vessels from the port of Montreal, so that transportation from the head of the great lakes through to Liverpool is a matter altogether out of the question.

Might I call the attention of the House to the fact that the lion. Minister of Railways and Canals has not been able to carry out the pledges he made last year as to the deepening of the St. Lawrence canal system. That is uot a matter anybody can find fault with. We can only regret it, but

have not come up to his expectation of 20 per cent.

I am not here to complain of the action of the government in going on with this St. Lawrence canal system. The government and the Minister of Railways came into office and found this fixed line of policy adopted by the late administration, the policy of deepening the St. Lawrence canal system, and if it has been a failure, the government cannot be held to account, nor can the late government be considered responsible, because the changes on the American side in the improvement of transportation, have militated against the interests of the St. Lawrence canal.

Hon. gentlemen may say that it is all very well to offer criticism, but some solution should be suggested, and he who simply stands and complains ought not to be listened to. But, I do not pretend to be voicing my opinions on this question, because I have no practical ideas. I am simply stating what I learn from vessel owners and others interested in the shipping-trade, and what I have learned by the experience of the past. That experience has taught us that the people of the United States have laid down a definite line of policy. Their shipping interests, both by rail and water, have laid down the policy that you must construct on the great lakes the largest possible freighters, and have the most complete and modern means of railway communication. Carry that grain by vessel to the nearest point of navigation on the great lakes, and then on to the seaboard by the most modern means known to railway enterprise. Keeping in view the fact that we have been spending millions of dollars on our canal system, and that the more money we have been spending the poorer results we get, surely it is time to call a halt, and before all our grain goes into American channels let us see if we cannot improve upon the present canal system by some other means. The government could do this. They should at once as a whole, bind themselves to a fixed line of policy, and not have each individual member of the government formulating different lines of policy on the question of transportation. That they should stop at

we can hold the minister to this, that he J once and for ever, and adopt as a body a

ventured a prophecy, with all the informa tion at his hand as chief of the department, and so did the hon. member for Quebec West (Hon. Mr. Dobell), as a member of the administration, concerning trade that would accrue to the St. Lawrence canal system this year, and despite that prophecy we find that the St. Lawrence canal system is going behind in grain receipts. The hon. member for Quebec West said last year : We only got 8 per cent In the past year, and in the year 1901, we would obtain no less than 20 per cent of the grain-carrying trade.

If 8 per eent was the correct figure last year, we have fallen far short of that, and Mr. BENNETT.

fixed and definite line of policy.

Mr. FIELDING.

Mr. FIELDING.

is good enough to make a motion, all the information that he desires will be brought down as speedily as possible.