Mr. B. R. Leboe (Cariboo):

Mr. Speaker, as one who spent 20 years working in industry, and who for some 15 years has had men working for me, I intend tonight to touch on a different phase of the unemployment situation, I should like to follow along the lines adopted tonight by the hon. member for Edmonton East (Mr. Holowach). What I would like to say tonight has to do with management-labour relations.

I am not concerned at the moment with the figures in respect to unemployment. These statistics mean very little to us unless we are thoroughly familiar with all the matters connected with them. What I am concerned1 with today is the relationship that exists between management and labour. I do not believe either management or labour are justified in all the things they do. The employer is as dependent upon labour as labour is dependent on the employer. And, as the hon. member for Edmonton East said, we must perpetuate that marriage, and we must encourage the attitude of partnership.

In connection with the unemployment situation today, and in past years, I believe it will be found that much of it has resulted because of the wedge which has been driven between management and labour. That is one of the greatest causes for alarm in any country; and the lack of proper relationship between those who are to perform the work and those who are outlining the work to be performed must always constitute a serious problem to any country.

In that regard I would like to touch upon the problem of strikes, and in this matter I can speak with some knowledge, for we just went through a 101-day strike in the Prince George area. During that strike we found children going to school without butter or jam or anything else between their slices of bread, and other children at the schools had to share with the children of those who were unfortunate enough to be caught in that strike.

A strike does not only affect the strikers, but also other people who are connected with the particular industry involved, and who

perhaps themselves were not in favour of the strike. That was the case at Prince George. Prior to the strike we had three trains per day hauling lumber out of that town, but after the strike had been on for some little time these trains were entirely cut off. The railroad men depending on the lumber industry suffered because of the relationship that existed between management and labour at Prince George.

In any investigation the government might conduct into this matter I hope that is one of the phases of our industrial life which will be investigated at the same time, because harmonious relationships between management and labour will aid in any development of our natural resources and in the construction of irrigation and power projects so badly needed in this country.

There is one particular aspect we should all remember, and that is that any worker who works in a plant, regardless of its size and monetary value, is making a living out of the fixed assets that are there. The operator naturally expects to operate at a profit; but we must not forget, as workers, that we have all this equipment in our hands with which to make our living. I recall that when I was employed in the sawmill industry I would often look at the machines there and reflect that I had nothing to do with the actual investment, but that I certainly had a chance to produce and make a living with the machines which were provided.

Management is dependent on labour and labour is dependent on management. If they cannot get along together we cannot solve our production problems. Once we develop harmonious relations between management and labour, and I say this sincerely, I do not think we need to fear communism in this country. Those people who would sow distrust and hatred and drive a wedge between management and labour are the ones who are going to be our undoing in the long run if this situation is allowed to continue. We must make every effort to bring management and labour closer together.

On motion of Mr. Leboe the debate was adjourned.

Mr. B. R. Leboe (Cariboo):

Mr. Speaker, in rising to take part in this debate, I am not going to dwell on a lot of political theories nor take up the time of the house in that way. It seems we sometimes find that people think that the press gallery is fertile ground for the dissemination of political speeches. I believe the place for that is out on the hustings.

I am going to speak to you tonight for only a few minutes. I am not going to bring in a lot of figures which go in one ear and out the other and that do not mean too much. I know that the minister has access to far more statistics than most of us. It just depends upon the willingness of the government to use these statistics, so I feel there is no point in putting forth a lot of figures at this time.

National Housing Act

There is one point I should like to bring to the attention of hon. members, and I imagine there are quite a few who will agree with me. I believe that in considering this housing bill we should pay more attention to the man with a large family. It is a well recognized fact that the larger the family the larger the house, and the larger the house the more expensive it is to build. The man who has a large family naturally has greater responsibilities in rearing those children, and I believe therefore some consideration should be given to providing these large families with an opportunity to obtain a house equal to that given to the smaller family.

The thought I have in mind is that the down payment should never exceed 10 per cent because it is going to work a hardship on the individual who has a large family. Naturally, the individual with a larger family has something else to contend with that is greater than a person with a small family. I mean that the dining room table needs more plates around it; there need to be more beds in the house and there need to be more facilities all the way through. Speaking seriously, it is easily seen that a hardship is being worked on the individual who has the greatest responsibilities. I do not think the principle is right. Before I am through someone is going to realize that I have a large family.

I was a little bit concerned, Mr. Speaker, [DOT]over a press report appearing in the Montreal Gazette. I have not a copy of it with me, but I do not intend to quote from it. The press report dealt with the centralization of housing in the city of Montreal. I would certainly be disturbed if I thought our housing policy were going to have that effect. I feel that facing the possibility of a war, and we cannot say that we are not when we think of the budget that is going to be brought down, if we are going to bring our families together in centralized places we are only going to make them that much more vulnerable to attack. Coming from a rural area as I do, I would say that much consideration should be given to the possibility of allowing lumbering and mining concerns to borrow money to supply the housing needs of their employees.

One of the previous speakers mentioned these shack towns. It is those towns that I am thinking about now. We should encourage better housing in such places. Such mortgages would not cause us concern because these people are working in primary industries. It is in the primary industries that the individual is closest to the payroll. I

[Mr. Leboe.l

say again, let us decentralize our housing and get more development out in the rural areas.

In closing I should like to leave this thought with you. There has been a lot of stress put on the fear of the individual who has a house with a mortgage. If the individual is able to get into the house, his only fear then should be about meeting the payments. I should like to see a provision in the bill that would make it possible for a married man with one child who moved into a small house to be able to enlarge or extend that house at a later date. If the individual happened to have a larger family and be unable to meet the payments, he should be allowed to recapitalize and bring down the payments within his reach. I should like to emphasize the fact that the rural areas have not had proper consideration in connection with housing, and coming from a rural area I can speak authoritatively on that subject.

1. Has the British Columbia Telephone Company purchased from the federal government any or all of the telephone and telegraph lines and equipment held by the government?

2. If so, what was the purchase price?

3. Was an appraisal of the assets made, and by whom?

4. If this transaction was made, what provision is there for the continuation of employees?

Mr. B. R. Leboe (Cariboo):

Mr. Speaker, in rising to speak to this bill I would like to say, as a new member, that in listening to some of the speeches made in this house I often wonder whether these speeches are intended to be a demonstration of the respective members' speaking ability or are a sincere attempt to contribute something to the debate.

I must confess I am not an excellent speaker, but I hope to be able to contribute to this debate something that will be of value to members of this house and also of assistance to those who are charged with the responsibility of developing our northern resources.

I think the greatest aid to development is the provision of communications, the railways, highways and telephone systems which I think are required more than anything else at this time in order to assist this projected development. We have found in the past that capital has been available for the development of areas where ample communication services were available. It seems to me that wherever we have provided these services people have been prepared to go into such places. If people can have a fairly respectable living and decent conditions they are only too willing to pioneer. Possibly I come

[Mr. Macdonnell.l

from a pioneering family. I lived in a land of promises where we were promised things for 30 or 40 years and they never came.

There are various matters that should be taken into consideration so far as northern development is concerned, and I am going to refer particularly to the area which I represent because the development of the northern part of Canada and the Yukon is directly related to that of the part of British Columbia from which I come. First of all I want to mention the highway situation. There should be co-operation between this department which we are now creating, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Public Works, as hinted in the Prime Minister's address a short while ago. In order to have development we must have co-ordination of the efforts of these various departments. Too often we find that we have isolated the different departments too well, and that there is not enough dovetailing of effort to secure the most for the taxpayer's dollar.

There is a new highway that runs right through my riding from north to south. It enters the riding at Marguerite and a thousand miles to the north passes into the Yukon at Lower Post. This is an arterial highway in the province of British Columbia which carries traffic from the United States to Alaska, passing through the Yukon. I consider that as an arterial highway it deserves the consideration of the federal government with respect to support. I am not suggesting how this is to be accomplished or how much the support should be; I am only saying that in my opinion financial support should be extended.

There is another matter which is directly concerned with northern development, and that is the development of highways in Canada on the basis of their classification as arterial highways. I suggest that they should be so classified and that federal support should be granted on that basis. Telephone communications should naturally follow the development of our highways. On our highways we find that we have the ribbon development that is so necessary to take care of travellers passing back and forth over these roads.

I am not going to take much more time. I should like to mention the railway situation. There is a railway running from Squamish at the present time-and we hope in the not too distant future it will be extended to Vancouver-north as far as Prince George. I think it is essential that the departments of the federal government and the provincial government co-operate with respect to pushing railroads northward

from Prince George, and perhaps also from Dawson Creek or Hines Creek through the Peace pass to Finlay Forks and thence north to the Yukon with a connecting link to Hazelton and Prince George.

Without seeing these places on a map it is rather difficult for hon. members to visualize exactly what I am speaking about, but those who are interested only have to glance at a map to realize that this is an important step in the development of the north country.

There is only one more point I wish to make. I do not know whether this bill will be the means of making provision for the reclamation and recognition of historic places, but I should like to say that I believe at one time Barkerville was the largest city west of Chicago. Today there are many historic buildings in Barkerville which should receive some consideration if it is within the scope of this measure to do so.

That is all I have to say at this time. I know there are other speakers who have a great deal to contribute to the debate. I certainly appreciate the time afforded to me, and I hope that when the matters I have mentioned are examined it will be found that in some way I have contributed to this debate.

Mr. Leboe:

I hear someone say that he is, although I cannot vouch for that point. However, I remember well, back in the years around 1935, when the Social Credit government took over in Alberta. Those people were the ones who said that grass would grow in the streets of the cities, the capital would leave Alberta, and that there would be a general depression throughout the province. Yes, people would even wager that within a year's time there would be no such thing as an Alberta government, with those supporting Social Credit principles forming it.

Well, eighteen years have gone by, and I think I can say without successful contradiction that the Social Credit government in Alberta in the last election returned to power with the greatest over-all vote it ever enjoyed. These are things of which the people might well take note. The administration of public affairs in Alberta is as the people want it; it is what they desire, and it is what we will eventually have.

I was neither concerned nor impressed with the remarks of the hon. member for Skeena when he cast reflection upon the people of British Columbia. The day is not too far distant when we will be sufficiently well organized, and with an educational program available to us to give the people of Canada the opportunity to learn for themselves that we have a practical solution to

our greatest problems. We will place men and women in nomination across Canada offering the alternative which will seal the fate of the party now in power in Canada, just as surely as the voters have sealed the fate of the self-same party provincially in most of the provinces of Canada.

Pre-election spending, which is merely placing the real nature of things in a more favourable light, will not, in my humble opinion, fool the people of Canada very long.

As soon as Canadians realize that in our movement they have a bona fide alternative, there will be a change of government in Canada, and we will provide that alternative on the basis of-get this-a positive program of policies based on truth, and free of patronage.

I have been told by many people in my riding that my riding would be sadly neglected by this government by reason of the fact that I do not sit with the government. As a matter of fact, I noticed that in some of the advertisements that were published during our federal campaign. This point of view, I am certain, will prove unfounded. Certainly, since after a member is elected he is presumed, in the best tradition of democracy, to represent all of the people of his electoral district without fear, favour or regard to political views, one would hardly expect the polite hard-luck story from any department with respect to any real need that should be met in that particular district. We do hope that those who suspect this government would favour districts with members elected to the government and disregard the needs of those districts who elected members now sitting in the opposition are entirely wrong, and that events will show that we still have a government of all the people, even if they should fail to govern well.

Perhaps there are some here who do not realize the size of some of these northern electoral districts and the need for assistance in air travel to serve the area adequately. The distance from the southern boundary of the Cariboo riding to the northern boundary is about the same as from Ottawa to Fort William, and if you want to go east it is the same distance as from Ottawa to the northern point of Nova Scotia. That is one riding. I may say that that riding cannot be covered by railway, because the railway is not there-I hope it will be there some day. I feel that we should have some sort of equalization of expense money or some other means adequately to compensate these great distances that people have to travel in these northern ridings. The people are just as important at the very far north of the riding as they are in the south.

The Address-Mr. Leboe

One fellow told me he had a riding every part of which he could reach within ten minutes from one point. I have a riding that is over 1,000 miles from south to north, and I have an expense account of $2,000 and a pass on a railway that does not exist. Some people may think that is funny; but to those people who certainly want to do a job in looking after their riding let me say it is no joke. This proposition of air travel will come up perhaps at a later stage in the session and we are going to be looking forward to a little assistance for those coming from Alberta and from the British Columbia area especially.