Mr. MOWAT:

The hon. member for

Port Arthur and Kenora (Mr. Keefer) has said that the Ontario Government is contemplating giving the power rights in the Winnipeg river to E. W. Backus, who, I understand represents very large interests. In my view, that would be the exercising of a control outside the power of the province. If the Dominion has the right to grant water-power rights in the Winnipeg river, those rights should be very closely guarded.

Mr. MOWAT:

The Prime Minister's explanation is satisfactory so far as it goes, and I notice from the last clause of this Bill that it is only brought into effect by Order in Council. In the meantime these matters can be looked into; but it seems to me that before we finally conclude an arrangement with the province of Ontario, which seems to be rather keen on asserting its rights to water-powers on navigable rivers, as the Dominion has rather let go its powers in the past, there should be a perfect understanding that this agreement is without prejudice to any rights that belong to the Dominion over navigable waters and water-powers that exist in navigable waters. As regard the St. Lawrence, I do not think anybody can say otherwise than that there is a dispute between the Dominion and the province. The province asserts its rights to water-powers in the St. Lawrence for its hydro-electric system. It is true that it is an international river, but I do not see that the principle is different. The Dominion is also asserting its right to those powers which are of enormous value. If the province is about to grant to a private person the water-power rights in the Winnipeg river, as is said by my right hon. friend, it may do so in other cases wherever there are rapids. Nothing should be done without the Dominion interest being protected in this respect.

Mr. MOWAT:

I understand that this is an arrangement between the Dominion and the Provincial Governments and is the only feasible way of carrying out what is desirable. But I hope the Government have clearly before them the fact that the Winnipeg river is navigable, and as such the water powers there belong to the Dominion Government. This clause 5, leaving to the Legislature of the province of Ontario full power, ought to be guarded, for the reason that the province no doubt contends that the water powers on these small rivers belong to them. I think the Dominion has given way or silently acquiesced in the appropriation of many water powers which belong to the Dominion. The Niagara river is navigable, although it is not navigable at the great declivity at the Falls, and yet the Dominion is getting no value out of the water powers which really belong to it. This raises a great constitutional question, and if it is the fact that the Dominion has the right to the water powers on this navigable river, no matter how it may be impeded by rapids or rocks, it should be very jealous to keep all these powers to itself. The Ontario Government is getting all the value of the immense water powers on the Niagara river where really the Dominion should have a large

share ol them. We have a great war debt to liquidate, and if we have an asset in these navigable rivers I think it should be jealously guarded.

Mr. H. M. MOWAT (Parkdale) :

I desire to ask the Government the two following questions: First: Is the Government aware that Hon. F. B. Carvell, Chief Railway Commissioner, recently said at Vancouver that the action of Parliament in

acquiring the Canadian Northern Railway was capricious and ill-considered, in that *he referred to Government-owned railways as a "toy?" Second: Has the Government considered whether the loquacity of the Chief Commissioner on current politics can be limited?

Mr. H. M. MOWAT (Parkdale):

I

understand the practice to be, when petitions for private Bills are not presented within six Weeks from the opening of Parliament, that when the petition is presented Mr. Speaker calls attention to the fact that it is too late, and then any honourable member interested may move that the petition be referred to the Standing Committee on Standing Orders for consideration and report.