Mr. W. H. Jorgenson (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture):

Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the minister this evening who, as I am sure the house knows, is away on a mission that is of importance to everyone in Canada, I take pleasure in making a few remarks on the motion for second reading of this bill to provide for the rehabilitation of agricultural lands and the development of rural areas in Canada.

At the resolution stage the minister outlined the broad philosophy which this bill is intended to convey. He stated that the main purpose is the improvement of the economic position of those farmers whose lands are at present classified as marginal or submarginal. However, it has not only the intention of improving the economic status of a great number of farmers who live in these economic units; it will also have the effect of simultaneously improving the position of farmers possessing more economic units. The bill itself fits into the broad philosophy of this government in respect of agricultural policy.

The subjects of bills that have been introduced into this House of Commons and have been passed as legislation include the following: a program of price stabilization to alleviate the effects of the fluctuation of prices owing to economic conditions beyond the farmers' control; the introduction of a crop insurance program designed to minimize the effect of fluctuation in yields caused by weather conditions beyond the farmers' control; the implementation of a comprehensive 90205-6-264J

Marginal Lands Development farm credit program to assist farmers in developing more economic units and to provide farmers with the opportunity of developing their operations to the point where they can effectively carry on in the face of changing economic conditions in the world today. This program fits into that broad general picture.

There are three attitudes that a government can take towards agriculture in the country as a whole. It could do nothing and could allow the agricultural economy to develop of its own accord. As I think most hon. members would agree, you would get the results that you should expect from that type of policy.

The second attitude is that you could leave nothing to the farmer; you could direct him completely in the production, marketing and selling of his products. We prefer not to take this attitude because we firmly believe that farmers in this country are not only capable but desirous of carrying on their own farming operations and making their own decisions on the farm.

We prefer to adopt the attitude that governments can provide an environment whereby people can take advantage of their own native abilities, initiatives and desires, and by providing that environment they can achieve for themselves that position which it is necessary for them to maintain if they are to keep pace with the other forces in our economy.

There are several approaches to this problem. The bill outlines in three separate phases the intention of the government. First of all there are the projects for the alternative uses of land.

The minister has on several occasions indicated what he has in mind in this respect. He has outlined that many areas of Canada which are presently being used for agricultural purposes could be put to better use for the production of trees or as reforestation projects.

A number of these projects have already been put into effect under the Prairie Farm Rehabilitation Act and the Maritime Marshland Rehabilitation Act. These are designed to bring into effect the proper utilization of our land resources.

There are several other aspects of land utilization programs that I could cite. One in particular that comes to my mind at this time is the program dealing with wildlife conservation. This is a program that has often been discussed but in respect of which very little action has been taken.

It is perhaps a sad commentary on our system that in the past we have found that too often municipal programs, provincial programs and even individual programs are in conflict with national programs. I think it

Marginal Lands Development is fair to say that under the rural development program the intention will be to coordinate the efforts of not only provincial and federal governments but those of municipal and private organizations also, even down to individual farmers, in the proper utilization .and conservation of our land resources.

The definition of the word "agriculture" has often taken many meanings. The dictionary itself uses many ways of describing it. However, in my opinion the definition that most appropriately describes agriculture is not contained in the dictionary but comes from some experience and knowledge in the practical application of farming methods.

In many respects agriculture seems to be regarded by the non-farmer as a very complicated business. Perhaps this is because we are living in an age where complications are worshipped. I prefer to think of agriculture as a technique whereby you continue to produce food from the land for as long as food is needed, but you will only continue to do that if what you take out of the land is replaced.

Here again the bill does provide for proper conservation methods and, in addition to this, the development of rural projects designed to complement the existing agricultural potential of a given area.

There are many ways in which projects can be carried out under the terms of this bill. Perhaps it might be appropriate, since I am from the province of Manitoba, to outline at this point what this particular province has done in attempting to prepare themselves to co-operate with the federal government in the development of their own resources.

First of all, starting shortly after the present government assumed office, they began to conduct a land classification survey-the only one in existence in Canada-to determine the agricultural potential of each area.

Following this they have carried out several economic surveys to determine what the industrial potential, in conjunction with the agricultural potential, of a given area will be. Several of these surveys have been completed and others are currently under way.

In the economic survey areas the province has set up what they call community development corporations, composed of individuals, businessmen, bankers, farmers and whoever may be interested, to decide upon projects that might be complementary to the existing economy of that particular area.

After having decided what projects will be best suited to their particular area, these development corporations will then apply to the provincial government, through the Manitoba development fund, to assist them in carrying out the projects they have in mind.

Provided that these projects are complementary to the plans for that area, they can receive financial assistance to carry on these projects.

As I mentioned earlier, several of the projects have been completed. I should like to quote briefly from part of the report on the economic survey of south central Manitoba, by Ebasco Services Incorporated, of October, 1960. On page 75 of the report, under the heading "Guidance for Development", the third paragraph reads:

In any such plan all levels of government-

They are speaking here of plans for rural development:

-will be involved and voluntary organizations such as chambers of commerce, agricultural societies, and community development corporations must lend their assistance to a co-ordinated program.

This is a point which I made earlier, and I think it is one that is significant because it appears repeatedly throughout this report. On page 76 under the title "Land Use and Economic Planning", this is what they have to say:

Land use planning should be applied to the entire area of projected community growth of all urban centres to ensure the welfare of local citizens, the protection of commerce and industry through the prevention of improper land uses, the provision of adequate space for schools, hospitals, parks, playgrounds and industrial locations, and development of aesthetically pleasing street patterns and residential areas. It should be noted that security of investment in housing, commercial establishments and industrial plants can only be achieved if firm zoning and land use restrictions are applied consistently. At the present time new industries prefer to locate in centres with adequate land use planning. In future this preference may be expected to reach a point where location of new industries may be contingent upon such measures.

I think this indicates clearly the necessity of the implementation of this measure to assist communities and provinces in the proper utilization of their land resources. It is also interesting to note in the report of the delegation of the Canadian Department of Agriculture dated February, 1960, presented by request to the special committee of the Senate on land use in Canada, some of the observations of that body. At page 56 of the report, the following recommendations appear:

Team effort of local people.-One of the basic tenets of the rural development program is the belief that local people can do things to help themselves if they are provided with motivation, leadership and financial aid.

As I outlined earlier, this is the philosophy which this government has adopted with respect to the development of our rural areas. We do not believe we should provide complete direction. I shall read the paragraph which occurs a little later on in this report and which corroborates this attitude.

This has been accomplished through the mobilization of local citizen groups under the guidance of the federal-state extension service and many community minded leaders. It was of interest to the delegation to learn about the large number and varied kinds of projects that local leaders and committees had put into operation and were considering for future action.

Later on they say:

The fact that the members of the local committees have a personal interest in bringing about improvements in the economic and social structure of the area is the real key to success.

This underlines the point I made earlier with regard to the Manitoba program where the initiative and the direction of community development programs takes place at the local level. Once they have decided upon a course of action they can request assistance from provincial and federal governments in carrying out the program.

In the fourth paragraph it is stated:

The real problem is to stimulate imaginative and critical thinking on the part of the local people so they are able to see the potentials and opportunities and the need for action .. . This is a town-country approach, and sectional interests are lost in the common good.

Some indication of the need for focusing on local effort in the development and direction of projects was noted by the delegation in at least two different states.

This observation is very important:

Where the line of direction was from the federal or state authority down to the local level, projects failed because of lack of local interest and support. The delegation found a strong feeling that the organization and direction should remain in the hands of local people but the stimulus and motivation, especially in the early states, should come from state and federal bodies through the co-operative extension service.

I think this clearly underlines the intention of the bill which is now before the house and certainly it is an indication that in many respects we can follow the experience that our neighbours to the south have gathered in the course of their rural development programs.

Perhaps it would not be amiss if I read here tonight from a statement which appeared in the Canadian Federation of Agriculture news and information bulletin of January, 1961. It gives a fairly clear indication of what type of rural development program could be organized in an area which is in need of some reorganization. This item appears on page 2 of this bulletin and it is entitled: "A Rural Development Project in Quebec". It says:

In recent speeches, agriculture minister Hamilton has made the point that in the future many farmers would be wise to develop alternative sources of income to supplement their returns from conventional sources. He has mentioned pulp-wood as one of these alternative sources. There are no doubt others that come to mind and many have been developed in the United States under their expanding rural development program. The MacDonald Farm Journal, the monthly publication

Marginal Lands Development of MacDonald college, McGill university, edited by Leslie G. Young, the secretary of the Quebec Farmers' Association, carries a very interesting story in its December issue, which spells out how one farm family sought out an alternative source of income that has grown into a community project.

This story is set in the Sutton mountains, at the town of Sutton, 63 miles from Montreal.

I am sure the hon. member for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Grafftey) will be interested in this.

There are many mountains and hills in that area, and some of the farms are of a marginal type. One young farmer, Real Boulanger, a confirmed skier, decided that the community had real potential as a skiing resort. He and his family and friends organized Mount Sutton, Inc. in February of 1960, and purchased 2,300 acres of land on the north side of Mount Sutton, the highest peak within 100 miles of Montreal. Then came the development of a first-class ski resort. Experts were brought in to lay out the trails, and all summer long workers have been busy installing a double chair lift, a T-bar and building a chalet. A new road was built and parking for 2,000 cars was provided in time for the opening at mid-December. Jean Lessard, one of Canada's 1960 Olympic skiers, has agreed to provide skiing lessons. What has it meant to the community? Sutton is a rural community, and most of the local businesses were dependent upon the farm trade. The resort has brought new business. Twenty five people have been employed on the project, and it will provide full-time employment for from 15 to 20 people all winter. It is expected that the ski run will take from $60,000 to $70,000 the first winter, and that the total revenue in the community will be between $250,000 and $300,000. Real estate prices have soared, and many people have come out from the city to buy lots for country homes. The town has several new shops and stores, and there is a boom in the room and lodging business. Some 150 people in the town have listed rooms for skiers. The mayor of Sutton is most enthusiastic, and the Brome Country Farmers' Association has taken the initiative in seeking zoning bylaws to prevent the construction of substandard tourist accommodation.

This is just one example of rural development carried on through the initiative of a group of local people. It is not too difficult to imagine how many more projects somewhat similar in type could be carried on throughout Canada if some assistance in planning and financing could be given through provincial and federal governments. As I have already indicated, my own province of Manitoba is a province which is very active in laying the foundations for a development program to complement the existing economy, providing alternative uses of land, and thereby providing employment opportunities for people who are presently flocking to the cities, swelling our unemployment ranks.

It does seem to me that the intention of this bill is to create many new opportunities for farmers throughout Canada and, most important of all, to provide for the continuation of the land resources of this country so that future generations will have the opportunity

Marginal Lands Development or making their living from the soil and providing food for the nation and, indeed, for the countries of the world for as long as food is needed.

I am sure that the minister would have made a far more extensive statement at this time than I have, and I trust that when he returns he will have the opportunity of commenting further and elaborating on some of the points I have made. Knowing of his enthusiasm for the contents of this bill, and with knowledge of the energy he has applied in bringing into effect the many programs which we felt are not only desirable but necessary for the continuation of our land resources, I am sure that hon. members of this house will support this bill. I have taken a great deal of pleasure in having had the opportunity of saying a few words at this particular stage of the bill.

Mr. W. H. Jorgenson (Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Agriculture):

I think that question would be more properly directed to the Prime Minister.

Mr. Jorgenson:

The hon. member says this was a presentation to the Canadian wheat board. Surely it must be obvious even to him that this is a matter which comes under wheat board jurisdiction.

Mr. Jorgenson:

The hon. member knew full well he was out of order, too.

Mr. Jorgenson:

That does not stop you from talking about them.